Sam Harris

This is my first and will be my last post. You may reply, but do not direct at me, I will not visit this site again. I hope this post remains posted as food for thought. I am disturbed to find that a place like this exists, and that a person I thought I knew lives a secret life as a member of this board, posting things I am embarrassed to think.

Have you "intelligent" people nothing better to do than to cramp your wrists day and night with extensive and unresearched posts that are purely emotional at the core? Exactly what you do not want to hear, am I right? Did I offend any of you? Stir some emotion?

Those of us who have faith in something better than this life and the fallen people that we are spend our time attempting to make this world we live in now a better place for our children to mature, not trying to disprove anyones beliefs or opinions regarding what happened thousands of years ago, through mindless topics and name-calling. What difference does it make to you if I am a Christian or not? It is sad that there is so much misdirected passion here. That people "on the fence" may stumble across this board of opinions and join in instead of reading the bible and getting the facts from the source. I ask you now, how many of you honestly, have studied (not read, studied) the bible from cover to cover? How many of you own a bible?

Instead of wasting your time conversing with strongly opinionated people about how to bring believing in something better to an "end" why not read the only book NOT authored by an imperfect and flawed man (like yourself) and form your own opinion instead of jumping on the popular opinion bandwagon? Let's face it, books and articles published by humans are based either on someone else's writings or their own opinions, right? Were any of these authors present for evolution or the big bang? The bible is the only book on this planet older than any of you, written by people who were present for the events documented, with countless proven facts, prophecies and locations, still present today. Socrates? Who cares what he thought? Think for yourselves. Then again, lack of confidence in yourself and your innate belief system causes you to seek out others like you… can you sleep better at night knowing you have an internet support group (consisting of anonymous people who are too ashamed to give you their real name) and, what, you won't die alone? Frankly, I take comfort in friends and family I can feel, touch and love.  People online care not what happens to you. If any of you die tomorrow your posts and your presence here will go unnoticed and not be missed.

Let's start a thread about how to assist others with the quest to quench world hunger, embark on a mission for world peace, or how to reach out to others for the good of humanity. Time (as precious as it is) better spent, don't you think? Your presence here confirms your spirit is missing an important component: faith… in anything. You all come across as lost and miserable, you know, with nothing to believe in, searching for others to ease your guilt. How sad. Kudos to those of you who post the Truth.

I am a highly educated individual and a strong Christian, I work full-time and only stumbled across this board as it has appeared on my home computer. I can only assume those members and Guests who spend hours researching and arguing about the "rediculous faith" of others have never married, are seperated or divorced, lost their jobs or should be devoting this time and effort to their job, and instead are typing frantically day and night on a keyboard to convince themselves (and sway countless anonymous others) that God doesn't exist. Why not have these discussions with your local professor, pastor or even your parents? Truth is, God is working on your hearts right now, you are all experiencing conviction, Satan is helping you fight it. How small your views, and, consequently, your lives must be. Enjoy your board!

1 Corinthians 14:20 "Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults."

Conservative Athiest,

Was this your wife’s work????

Now that we’ve all been reminded why we left the Church ... 

My deepest sympathies to whichever one of us she/he is related to.

Susan

[quote author=“Anonymous”]Conservative Athiest,
Was this your wife’s work????

No, I think CA has explained his mutually respectful relationship with his wife.

I fear this is fencesitter’s mother.  Has she muffled his inquiring voice?

Are you still out there, fencesitter???

If it was, I just like to say… yes dear

As a person of faith, I’m thoroughly embarressed that a ‘brother’ would write such an ignorant, unloving post.

Our ‘highly educated’ teacher has an incredibly narrow understanding of relationships and what it means to belong.  Just because people can’t ‘touch’ each other doesn’t mean the relationships aren’t signficant or meaningful.  Except for a few, I sense that there are caring people on this forum.

He is a self-described ‘strong Christian’.  Its a shame it doesn’t make a difference in his life.  Looking from the outside in, he has effectively marginalized and stereotyped posters on this forum… something his Jesus never did.  With broad, unloving sweeps, he labels ‘posters’ as divorcees, bums, or people with no lives.

He rips posters with ‘handles’ instead of using their real name.  Funny he didn’t give his name and address, isn’t it?  He fails to see that people can learn a whole lot more about me from the name ‘Ordinary’ than Brian.

[quote author=“Ordinary”]As a person of faith, I’m thoroughly embarressed that a ‘brother’ would write such an ignorant, unloving post.

That you would be occurred to me at about the second or third short paragraph . . . I saw no reason to continue beyond that.

Byron

[quote author=“Anonymous”]Conservative Athiest,

Was this your wife’s work????

No…........I thought it might be The Champ’s boyfriend.

I picture Carrie Nation

For Ordinary ...

Your response proves the philosophy of Jesus is stronger and speaks louder than the religiosity of the Church.

Susan

Feel better? Oh, wait. You’re not coming back.  Never mind.

[quote author=“Guest”]Have you “intelligent” people nothing better to do than to cramp your wrists day and night with extensive and unresearched posts that are purely emotional at the core? Exactly what you do not want to hear, am I right? Did I offend any of you? Stir some emotion?

Some find the intellectual stimulation of human discourse quite refreshing, as opposed to the stiltifying repression of memorizing bible verses. Oh, but again, you’re missing out, being in Bible class and all. We’ll be thinking of you.

Those of us who have faith in something better than this life and the fallen people that we are spend our time attempting to make this world we live in now a better place for our children to mature, not trying to disprove anyones beliefs or opinions regarding what happened thousands of years ago, through mindless topics and name-calling. What difference does it make to you if I am a Christian or not?

It doesn’t. Why, does it bother you that we are not?

It is sad that there is so much misdirected passion here. That people “on the fence” may stumble across this board of opinions and join in instead of reading the bible and getting the facts from the source. I ask you now, how many of you honestly, have studied (not read, studied) the bible from cover to cover? How many of you own a bible?

I’d ask you the same question, but it’s clear you haven’t actually studied it either. You know, there is a big difference between studying the bible, and simply memorizing it. Define “study”.

Instead of wasting your time conversing with strongly opinionated people about how to bring believing in something better to an “end” why not read the only book NOT authored by an imperfect and flawed man (like yourself)

and what book might that be? Surely not the bible, which was written by what turns out to be a commmitte of imperfect and uninformed (most likely) men over a couple of thousand years.

and form your own opinion instead of jumping on the popular opinion bandwagon?

Done. Next.

Let’s face it, books and articles published by humans are based either on someone else’s writings or their own opinions, right?

Oh. You WERE talking about the bible. Sorry.

Were any of these authors present for evolution or the big bang?  The bible is the only book on this planet older than any of you, written by people who were present for the events documented, with countless proven facts, prophecies and locations, still present today.

Instead of memorizing the bible, you ought to familiarize yourself with some of the research surrounding it’s writing, and then you wouldn’t make statements like this. It makes you appear, I don’t now…foolish?

Socrates? Who cares what he thought? Think for yourselves.

Pot. Kettle (bible). Black

Then again, lack of confidence in yourself and your innate belief system causes you to seek out others like you…

...as opposed to your belief in fairy tales?

can you sleep better at night knowing you have an internet support group (consisting of anonymous people who are too ashamed to give you their real name)

as opposed to Mr. “Guest” here who isn’t coming back? What’s your first name? Uninvited?

and, what, you won’t die alone? Frankly, I take comfort in friends and family I can feel, touch and love.  People online care not what happens to you. If any of you die tomorrow your posts and your presence here will go unnoticed and not be missed.

The first thing I agreed with you about so far.

Let’s start a thread about how to assist others with the quest to quench world hunger, embark on a mission for world peace, or how to reach out to others for the good of humanity. Time (as precious as it is) better spent, don’t you think? Your presence here confirms your spirit is missing an important component: faith… in anything.

Ummm. No. It’s faith in the unbelievable and unsupportable that we all are here for. Those first couple of things we all agree with you about

You all come across as lost and miserable, you know, with nothing to believe in, searching for others to ease your guilt. How sad. Kudos to those of you who post the Truth.

Why thank you. I’ll take that as a compliment. But really, I find it somewhat pathetic that someone can come on here and claim they know the Truth, and refuse to support their knowledge, then leave with a parting shot that they won’t be back.  That comes across to me as someone who is   lost and miserable.

I am a highly educated individual and a strong Christian, I work full-time and only stumbled across this board as it has appeared on my home computer.

It just appeared? It’s a miracle!

I can only assume those members and Guests who spend hours researching and arguing about the “rediculous faith” of others have never married, are seperated or divorced, lost their jobs or should be devoting this time and effort to their job, and instead are typing frantically day and night on a keyboard to convince themselves (and sway countless anonymous others) that God doesn’t exist.

That would be me. Married for 27 years (happily) 1st marriage, working in a profession for 26 years, 3 kids, and really, God doesn’t exist. Oh, wait. You were describing someone else.

Why not have these discussions with your local professor, pastor or even your parents? Truth is, God is working on your hearts right now, you are all experiencing conviction, Satan is helping you fight it. How small your views, and, consequently, your lives must be. Enjoy your board!

1 Corinthians 14:20 “Brothers, stop thinking like children. In regard to evil be infants, but in your thinking be adults.”

Nice talking to you.

SI

Our anonymous guest, with his/her hit-and-run approach to rational dialogue, has shown us first-hand that, as Sam says, faith is a conversaton-stopper.
Ordinary is right, the philosphies of Jesus as found in the Gospels do not allow for such arrogance and disdain.  BUT there is a lot more to the Bible than the Gospels.  Our Guest has obviously read the Bible, and has found some impetus for his beliefs amongst the “difficulties” that Ordinary and other moderates choose to skim over. 
When Ordinary refers to “his (Guest’s) Jesus”, he brings us to a big problem with faith… no two people seem to have the same faith, even though they’re (supposedly) reading the same book.  I don’t know any two Christians who agree about how to be a “true” Christian… and yet I don’t know a single Christian who isn’t all but certain they themselves have the “right” interpretation.  (The Inquisitors and Crusaders were invariably “just reading it wrong”)
That kind of arrogant certainty can only come from “faith”—from convictions that don’t demand proof.
I just don’t get this faith thing.  Either Jesus existed, was resurrected and ascended to heaven, or he wasn’t.  Either Jehovah exists or he doesn’t.  These are scientific and historical facts, or they aren’t.  There is no more reason to take these things on “faith” than to take evolution, relativity, etc, on faith. 
No wonder our Guest isn’t coming back—he might actually have to defend his beliefs.

Thanks to Spanish Inquisitor.
I might offer some slight variation, but you’ve saved us all the bother of the necessary line-by-line refutation of this sadly uninformed, closed-minded post.
This is where it is clear that “education” means different things to different people.  The ability to question was never part of the poster’s education.  His (or her) assumption that one cannot question the Hand of God in the Bible is the foundation for his limited ideology.
And these are the people running the country.
Taken out of context, let me offer this direct quote to sum up this poster’s problem:
“I am embarrassed to think. “
Do we feel that our views and lives are any smaller than this person’s, whose entire understanding of the world apparently comes from one old book?
Oh, yeah.  It’s the Word of God.  How foolish and naive of me to question it.

When I was in my sophomore year of high school and had finally the courage to tell my parents that I no longer considered myself a catholic, or a believer in god, I, with youthful arrogance and naiveté, explained to them that in the short span of 50 years or so religion would no longer be an influential meaningful factor in the daily discourse of people of my age group and younger.  Boy was I wrong!!  They of course were right when they told me I was wrong but they were right for the wrong reason.  My innocent naïve view was that my fellow classmates, who appeared to think and act like I did, would become liberated from belief and superstition and would change the world using thoughtful consideration of the facts and the knowledge they had gained in school and life.  Again, Boy was I wrong!!  My parents were right because they thought my generation would be thoughtless believers just like them.  They of course did not expound this view in this way but instead cited the wisdom of age but what my parents saw as wisdom I see as thoughtless uninformed complacency.  Sadly this is the status quo today (and yesterday) and I think it will continue so for many years to come.

By the time I graduated from high school my agnosticism had turned to atheism and I headed for college thinking I would find thoughtful intelligent non-believers looking to figure out what was true about the universe and using those truths to propose solutions that would solve the problems faced daily in the human condition.  College is where I thought people with this modus operandi hung out.  Boy was I wrong again!!  College was full of intelligent people who were thoughtless believers just like my parents.  After years of experience I have come to the conclusion that I was wrong and my parents were right for two reasons. 

1.Intelligence has little impact on a person’s ability to believe things. 
2.Belief and not religion is the problem.

So I think nothing much has changed since 1962 and nothing much will change in the future.  It seems to me that human beings have successfully evolved as believers of things and even though it is obvious to me that belief is an impediment to productive and successful interaction most of the humans I deal with on a daily basis are just not ready to give up on belief.  What are these beliefs?  Here is a short list.

God     Communism Skepticism
The Human Spirit Capitalism Liberalism
Human Nature Socialism Conservatism
Human life is special Democracy Pluralism
Love Brotherhood Philosophy

These beliefs and many more tend to short circuit progress in solving the problems humans have.  They block the realization that what humans need to pursue is the greatest good for the greatest number as the long range goal and that these beliefs should be viewed only as tools that can be used (and misused) to that end.  It seems that because of its past limited success blindly following the belief(s) has become the goal.  The logic (illogic) behind this seems to be that faithfully following the right belief will accomplish the goal.  I think a careful analysis of history says otherwise and that until humans learn how to cherry pick the useful and workable parts of these different tools (beliefs) in a timely manner we are doomed to struggle with and face the same problems over and over with limited success forever.

We here on this forum are dismayed by the myopic biblically supported beliefs of Champion and the Guest that does not want to bother listening to rebuttal without realizing that there is a much bigger problem that we are all a part.  This problem is belief itself.  The idea that one or more religion, philosophy, “ism”, or method (economic and/or social) if followed religiously is a solution to any human problem just does not make sense.  Not recognizing this while critiquing the arguments of Champ or the non listening Guest is like spitting in the wind.

Ray

Sorry I forgot to log in before posting.

Ray

Absolutly correct!  My life would have been a hell of a lot less complicated, and a lot easier if I had learned at a young age to “just see” with my experience, rather than some belief system or other.  I have tried to teach my children/grandchildren to just see.  That’s all, just see.

Pete