Sam Harris

[quote author=“Climacus”]
No, the “people of the book” get in. As far as I know, I don’t think there’s anything in the Koran about atheists qualifying for divine reward.

Well there are some “people of a certain book” that will laugh their asses off looking down at you christians when Xenu the intergalactic overlord will come and pick them up on his spaceship. “People of the book” my ass. The original people of the book were the jews. Have you spoken to Jehova lately or you just believe in a random book?

[quote author=“Climacus”]Were you able to understand the quote? It distinguishes Muslims from Christians. Most crucially, Christians don’t recognize Mohammed as a prophet. But they still get divine reward.

Yes and muslim don’t recognize Jesus as Jehova/Allah’s son (I prefer not to use the word God to some shitty gods). So you’re saying that muslim believe in the same god as christians even though their god doesn’t have a son. I looks like 2 different gods to me. God could play dice and yet Einstein was talking about God when he said “God doesn’t play dice”? That’s a fukced up reasoning

[quote author=“Climacus”]We could be. We could be looking at one apple. In reality it’s red. But your eyes are messed up, so you see it as yellow, and you call it yellow. I say it’s red, and I’m right. You say it’s yellow, and you’re wrong. But we’re talking about the same apple.

I was talking about people who see colour the same. Maybe you’ll understand now.

This analogy reminds me of Hilary Putnam’s “famous” Twin Earth dilemma….there’s a planet called twin earth and on this planet is a liquid with all of the physical properties that water has on planet earth, however when tested (by scientists) they discover that the chemical forumla of the Twin Earth liquid is XYZ while, naturally, water on earth is H2O..  Any earth person transported to Twin Earth would say that its liquid is exactly like water there is not a single thing different about it.  So from a practical, pragmatic, and experiental perspective there is no difference between the two liquids, they are both water.  But the scientist would contend that because their chemical formulas are different (H2O versus XYZ) these are not the same liquid . . .  according to Putnam, the scientist would be correct.

It seems that in these sorts of epistemological dilemmas someone has to end up playing god and naturally a philosopher of science would pick the scientist. (In a sense Putnam also picks the theoretical over the practical in deciding the truth.)  In the red apple versus yellow apple dilemma climacus wants to play god, so he does by screwing up the eyes of the one who sees a yellow apple.  The solution offered by Salt Creek (appealing to a scientist) seems appropriate here.

Sorry people, this was way off the mark . . . back to regular programming . . .

Bob

[quote author=“Salt Creek”]It is a shitty analogy.

What’s wrong with it?

You made the point that, with the apple, the issue can be resolved through empirical investigation. And I guess your objection is that God isn’t like that. Well, fair enough, but the analogy wasn’t meant to imply that. Its purpose was to show that two people can say different things about the same thing, and be talking about the same thing. Do you deny this as a general principle?

If one person is talking about a yellow apple and another person is talking about a red apple, they are talking about different fucking apples.

There’s no need for profanity.

Let’s compromise. Maybe the apple is yellow on one side and red on the other.

[quote author=“miller”]Yes and muslim don’t recognize Jesus as Jehova/Allah’s son (I prefer not to use the word God to some shitty gods).

What are some non-shitty gods?

So you’re saying that muslim believe in the same god as christians even though their god doesn’t have a son.

Their God does have a son. They just think he doesn’t - but they’re wrong.

Sometimes people are wrong. Do you accept that sometimes people are wrong?

Or maybe they could just eat the damn apple, then they wouldn’t have to look at it any more.

Bob

[quote author=“Climacus”][quote author=“miller”]Yes and muslim don’t recognize Jesus as Jehova/Allah’s son (I prefer not to use the word God to some shitty gods).

What are some non-shitty gods?

With respect to Jehova a non-shitty god would be a god that doesn’t ask people to kill their own children or others. With respect to Allah a non-shitty god would be a god that doesn’t offer virgins for the persons who blow themselves up.

[quote author=“Climacus”]

So you’re saying that muslim believe in the same god as christians even though their god doesn’t have a son.

Their God does have a son. They just think he doesn’t - but they’re wrong.

Sometimes people are wrong. Do you accept that sometimes people are wrong?

How can you prove me that muslims mistake about the fact that their god has a son? I told you I can create a god of my own, a god that I believe will torment you for eternity for the comments on this forum. Assuming my god doesn’t exist will the real god give me a break for this mistake consider that I believed in him? How much can you mistake about god? Can you think god is a female with 4 arms and 6 eyes and drives a chariot with 12 fire reindeers? Would that still count as belief in god or god will say “well idiot, you’re one deluded son of a biatch”?
Oh yeah. Christians, jews, muslims are wrong. If God (aka the originator of this universe) exists its very different from the assholes in their holy books. Unless there is no God but only one Devil. That’s what I think.

Theology works from the basis of a presupposition of God’s existence…theology is an empty discipline…it should be dismantled from academia…

[quote author=“JGrice02”]
By this logic we could say the same thing about science which works from the basis of a presupposition that we can know things based on empirical evidence.  I believe we can know things and I don’t think we should totally discredit science because of its presupposition which cannot be proven empirically.

But it can be proven empirically, and it has, over and over again. Science is also self-correcting and readily admits mistakes, which nonetheless aren’t typically of the type that halt or negate progress, but only continue it on the same trajectory but with new light.  Science is a rational thinking practice, and solid advances have been made indeed because of scientists’ continual practice of questioning the results of their work.
[quote author=“JGrice02”]
  It seems to me perfectly rational to accept that we can know things based on empirical evidence.  It also seems to me perfectly rational that God exists.

Yes. No.

JGrice02 wrote:

It seems to me perfectly rational to accept that we can know things based on empirical evidence. It also seems to me perfectly rational that God exists.

How? Rationality stems from a provable true or false claim. The Rational is represented by facts, theories about objective empirical subjects. Only these things can be known and only they constitute knowledge. Of course, this is not to say that rational things are the only worthwhile things in the world/universe/experience. However, rational things (as listed above) are the only true things in the world.

Exactly… God is God. Jehova is Jehova and not God. Allah is Allah and not God. You cannot be claiming to defend God if you speak about “him”. Do you know God’s gender?

One God rules over all. His actions are only life as it happeneds. Who ever is right, is right. There are no alternatives to reality. I call “it” God because I speak english.

Bad_Conduct wrote:

One God rules over all.

Since that God cannot Rule me, he does not exist.

Since you do not rule God, he does exist.

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Since you do not rule God, he does exist.

Since I do not rule the Flying Spaghetti Monster, he also exists.

BC said
There are no alternatives to reality. I call “it” God because I speak english.

When did you join the rest of us in reality?

Since I do not rule the Flying Spaghetti Monster, he also exists.

He was your idea, therefor you rule over him.

When did you join the rest of us in reality?

When did you finally wake up and notice?

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]

Since I do not rule the Flying Spaghetti Monster, he also exists.

He was your idea, therefor you rule over him.

He was not my idea; someone else concoted him, just like other people conconcted god, who also does not exist.