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The Dawkins Delusion
Posted: 23 January 2007 06:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 136 ]  
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[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Why should you care?
Because the world kicks people in the teeth, regardless of what they believe. Because real events are really unfolding, and religious arguments and choices are becoming more minor to the actual problems in this world.

The reason you should care is that I am as much a part of the world as you, and even if you and your peers disagree with me, my peers do agree with me. Sure, you may think you are champion of an internet forum, but the rest of the population doesn’t spend their time on here talking too you.

You should care because other people think on the same lines I do, and we aren’t going anywhere, anytime soon.

I’m glad you have put things out in the open. I don’t expect you are going anywhere, anytime soon. How much do you care whether anyone listens to you? After all, your peers agree with you, and that is all that counts.

You make an important point, that religious arguments are becoming less important. What kind of arguments are you making?

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Posted: 23 January 2007 07:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 137 ]  
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Bad_Conduct wrote:

You should care because other people think on the same lines I do, and we aren’t going anywhere, anytime soon.

But other people used to believe (or infere) that the world was flat. Humanity has demonstrated, although in bursts and stuttered steps, an affibility towards understanding how things are the way they are. We often lapse into the catch-all “because God must’ve done it”, or some response to that effect when we are unable to describe or define something (take a look at Newton for example). However, inevitably, and in spite of the proponents of medievalism, we push beyond this catch-all and breakthrough discoveries and theories about the very nature of our universe are made manifest… and then once again, humanity plods on.

I’ve asked this before, but in a more roundabout way - are you uneasy with the possibility that our existance (the universe’s existance, and thus, as an extension, us) is nothing more than the ebb and flow of evolution, without sentient reason (God) behind our future possibility? This is part of the human condition. To want stability. But perhaps this innocuous sense of stability (God) is hindering us from defining our own destiny (as a species, because, as you pointed out, there are a lot of people who believe in some sort of spiritual deity). Perhaps, if we ever shed this idea of belief, we could realize a far greater future. We would then have a potential framework on which to build a global and universal society that grounds itself in reason, understanding, and tolerance.

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Posted: 23 January 2007 09:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 138 ]  
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But other people used to believe (or infere) that the world was flat. Humanity has demonstrated, although in bursts and stuttered steps, an affibility towards understanding how things are the way they are.

Yah, our relatives. Our history. Did the chinese think the world was flat?

If everyone thought the world was flat, why did Columbus set sail? What about the Vikings? Why did ancient Egyptians have maps from the otherside of the world?

Why did no one take the fact that the moon and the sun are round into consideration? Maybe they said the world was flat so people wouldn’t explore America for political reasons.

I think you believe the people who told you what they believe. I wasn’t there, so I just admit I have no idea.

However, inevitably, and in spite of the proponents of medievalism, we push beyond this catch-all and breakthrough discoveries and theories about the very nature of our universe are made manifest… and then once again, humanity plods on.

You’re right, with out breakthrough discoveries and modern technology, we have new ways of understanding natural phenomin. When they wrote the Bible, they did not have those same explinations that we do today. Because of that, “God did it” sums it up. The minor details aren’t as important as the characters invovled.

It’s poor logic to assume nothing happened in God’s place.

I’ve asked this before, but in a more roundabout way - are you uneasy with the possibility that our existance (the universe’s existance, and thus, as an extension, us) is nothing more than the ebb and flow of evolution, without sentient reason (God) behind our future possibility?

No. I know there is a God, everything has a purpose. We can’t understand God’s reasoning or actions at this point in time, so there’s no reason to assume anything about our existence.

Death is our destiny, regardless of any choice we make in life. You can’t avoid it. If you aren’t remembered for how you lived, you’ll most likely be remembered for how you died.

We would then have a potential framework on which to build a global and universal society that grounds itself in reason, understanding, and tolerance.

God doesn’t have that much affect. A global tolerant society should not judge others based on their belief. I’m still lost…

Honest question: How does a belief in God hold people back?

I’m glad you have put things out in the open. I don’t expect you are going anywhere, anytime soon. How much do you care whether anyone listens to you? After all, your peers agree with you, and that is all that counts.

If I didn’t care, I wouldn’t be here.

You make an important point, that religious arguments are becoming less important. What kind of arguments are you making?

It’s arguing over religion that is unimportant, not the religious side of arguments.

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Posted: 23 January 2007 09:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 139 ]  
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Bad_Conduct wrote:

A global tolerant society should not judge others based on their belief. I’m still lost…

I completely agree. However, the very nature of Religion is one of intolerance. It’s a zero-sum expression of dogma. No matter what a Christian proports as toleration, the person who doesn’t BELIEVE as they do is damned in some way. This leads to a gradient by which one would define others (Christian/Believers or Non-believers) and this is never a good thing. Preach a sense of tolerance all you want, but a fundamental tenant of any religion is that “we have the truth, this is how you attain it”. There are levels of tolerance, and it appears, through my own limited studies, that the Abrahamic faiths, particularly Christianity and Islam, are prone to this type of dogma (Budhism, with its lack of any distilled notion of “God” creates a differing viewpoint on the practice of tolerance).

Honest question: How does a belief in God hold people back?

We could go round and round the circle again, but gleam what you can from my statement above.

Now, I’m saying that religion is the only source of intolerance, and without it the world would move forward to some grand secular global movement of paradise, but it seems to me that religion creates just another form of bias, of intolerance, and without it we may shed some immature notions (whether as a large or small measure I don’t know) as a species. Religion does do some good, such as galvanizing communities and peoples. However, have we not witnessed such states of humanity outside the realm of religion (or perhaps it invades and permiates every facet of society without our really realising it?)? Perhaps the question should be “is religion necessary to us as a species”? I really don’t know. From my own personal experience I would have to answer with a resounding “NO”, but this does not really answer the question, it only limits it to my own experience. I suspect that, at some point in the future, this question will become of fundamental importance. I could perhaps see a far future in which religion is treated like some sort of necessity by way of rite and ritual, but without the trappings of dogma and irrational faith… a kind of acknowledgement of its ability to give an ever changing world and universe a sense (no matter how facile) of stability, that immovable something that we as humans may not be able to grow out of.

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Posted: 23 January 2007 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 140 ]  
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It’s a zero-sum expression of dogma. No matter what a Christian proports as toleration, the person who doesn’t BELIEVE as they do is damned in some way.

Everyone is welcome into a Church. If you go into a church looking for a fight, than you’ll get the same results as a bar.

Religion itself states “love thy neighbour”. Everyone is equal in the eyes of the lord. When people who claim to be religious commit their own sins, that leaves judgement apon that individual.

From my own personal experience I would have to answer with a resounding “NO”, but this does not really answer the question, it only limits it to my own experience.

You’re experience is important, and I have observed much the same as you. I don’t blame the worlds problems on people who head to church, I do blame problems on people who claim the Church supports their war on terror.

The world needs a common goal. Borders and countries should become a thing of the past. We need unity and focus. If society focuses on a common goal, religion will incorporate itself into that goal and become the same beneficial member of the community it was previously. Church is a service, and like any service or product, it’s losing its credibility over time. It needs to recollect itself and remarket itself to a new generation. This is religion though.

Belief in God effects nothing.

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Posted: 23 January 2007 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 141 ]  
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Belief in God effects nothing.

I would completely disagree with that statement. As it has been argued a few times, with varying degrees of success, a belief in a deity to which there is some sort of finality ascribed to the worshippers existance (i.e. I’m going to heaven, you are not), is counterintuitive as a basis for true, rational understanding and tolerance. Espouse all the platitudes you want about “love thy neighbour” (and this is a good platitude that anyone can get behind), the corrosive idea that is “my belief places me above you because of its end destination” leads to an elemental divide from which two dissimilar parties cannot recover. Since there is no rational “truth” to the claim of belief (I’ve gone over this a few times) there can never be a discourse in which those that believe, those that have faith, can entertain the idea of errancy. Again, belief is not rational, and as such can, admitedly produce some wonderful results, but, on the flip side, it is capable of far too many disasterous pitfalls. When religion, when faith is touted as being any sort of deal breaker of decider in public agenda (war, political policy, and so on) it is exposed as the flaw of hubris that it is; nothing more than a spurious expression of a person’s own desires and biases.

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Posted: 23 January 2007 05:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 142 ]  
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I believe in God, but I don’t worship him. There is no need too. It will not change God’s opinion of me. God will only judge me by my actions, not my intentions.

Heaven is irrelevent. Going to heaven depends entirely on your life on earth (assuming you believe in heaven). If a religious fanatic tells you that you are damned to hell, you can turn around and say the same back with confidence.

But you are still welcome in the Church.

Again, belief is not rational, and as such can, admitedly produce some wonderful results, but, on the flip side, it is capable of far too many disasterous pitfalls.

Religion is part of heritage, people are born into a religion. Eliminating religion for “no god” is exactly the same as having one God or multiple gods. There is no difference, it is all various forms of belief in the unknown. If you raise your children as atheists, they will be born athiest, regardless of their religious choice later in life. Religion isn’t rational because reality makes no sense. There are equally as many pitfalls in unbelievers as their are in believers. A religious person who follows their religious morals and commits no sin should have no negative effect on your life. If you want to fall victim to modern trends, such as sex before marriage, no one can stop you. Don’t take my advice, listen to Eazy-E . He learned the hard way.

Eazy was diagnosed with AIDS March 1. “He told me it wasn’t fair, ” says Henry, her voice tense with emotion. “That he didn’t want to die. He said he wouldn’t care if he didn’t have a dime; he said he wouldn’t care what anybody said, if he could just drop the top on his car and ride up the coast one more time.”

You shouldn’t be encouraging social problems by raising against the foundations of law. We may not need church, and not all religious people are correct, but misinformation is deadly.

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Posted: 23 January 2007 05:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 143 ]  
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If you raise your children as atheists, they will be born athiest, regardless of their religious choice later in life.

Ah, but all children are born atheists. It is only from our parents and community that any notion of God is formed in a young mind. This ought to tell us something… and why yes, it does; that the idea of God is most likely, all things being equal, just that… an idea. Perhaps it is an idea based upon a fundamental yerning that mankind has, but it still doesn’t negate the probability of God only being represented as a state of mind, and not some overseer of the universe.

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Posted: 23 January 2007 05:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 144 ]  
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Even if you are born an athiest, it doesn’t change that you are born into a religion.

I don’t know anyone who can say “we don’t have any religion” except those who rejected their religion of birth and made a choice.

It is only from our parents and community that any notion of God is formed in a young mind.

But it is the Child that asks. My parents didn’t talk to me about God, I asked. For a long time, I did believe. When I was a teenager, I did not. Now, I know.

God only being represented as a state of mind, and not some overseer of the universe.

God has no representative on Earth. God doesn’t “Oversee”, he “Is” the Universe.

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Posted: 24 January 2007 12:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 145 ]  
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One prototypical conversation with Bad_Conduct

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Even if you are born an athiest, it doesn’t change that you are born into a religion.

[quote author=“Atheist”]Are not.

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Are too.

[quote author=“Atheist”]Are not.

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Are too.

... repeat as many times as necessary…

Another prototypical conversation with Bad_Conduct

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]God has no representative on Earth. God doesn’t “Oversee”, he “Is” the Universe.

[quote author=“Atheist”]Is not.

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Is too.

[quote author=“Atheist”]Is not.

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Is too.

... repeat as many times as necessary…

Note the similarities. Try another one:

[quote author=“Atheist”]Religion divides people.

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Does not.

[quote author=“Atheist”]Does too.

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Not.

These exchanges are becoming downright metronomic. If you want to hone your set of atheistic arguments, you need to find a better interlocutor. Or maybe you find this sort of thing entertaining.

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]But it is the Child that asks. My parents didn’t talk to me about God, I asked. For a long time, I did believe. When I was a teenager, I did not. Now, I know.

This is just a lengthy version of “Does too.” It seems to contain an argument from personal experience, but is it a response to the question of whether a child is actually “born” into a religion? You could read it either way! Which religion was Bad_Conduct born into when he was a teenager and “did not” believe? Now he believes again, and seems to have been born into a belief in god, just like everyone else. Everyone.

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]If you raise your children as atheists, they will be born athiest, regardless of their religious choice later in life.

The other kind of circular conversation you can have is about his habitual inversion of cause and effect. How can something you do to your children after they are born affect their condition at birth? Don’t even bother asking!

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Even if you are born an athiest, it doesn’t change that you are born into a religion.

I don’t know anyone who can say “we don’t have any religion” except those who rejected their religion of birth and made a choice.

What if you’re born to atheist parents? Well, then you must have been born into the religion of your grandparents! Which set? Maternal grandparents, Catholic. Paternal Grandparents, Protestant. Golly. This will be a toughie to sort out!

Maybe everyone is born into the “God is the whole universe” religion, and has to reject that in order to become a Catholic, Protestant, or atheist.

Is not.

Is too.  tongue rolleye

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]I believe in God, but I don’t worship him. There is no need too. It will not change God’s opinion of me. God will only judge me by my actions, not my intentions.
...
You shouldn’t be encouraging social problems by raising against the foundations of law. We may not need church, and not all religious people are correct, but misinformation is deadly.

The Bad_Conduct religion in a nutshell: If you understand the Bible correctly, the foundation of the law, you will never make a mistake. Like having sex before you’re married.

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]I am asking you questions because there are numerous circumstances involved in every situation. Thing’s don’t happen without a reason. Tell me why a 23 year old had a brain tumor and you will answer your own question. You expect me to explain things with “God” but “God” doesn’t work outside the limits of reality.

The brain tumor happened because of mistakes the 23-year-old made because he didn’t read his bible. Naturally, he is at fault for his own brain tumor. Like, believers never get brain tumors.

[ Edited: 05 November 2007 09:58 AM by Eaton Shirdlu]
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Posted: 24 January 2007 12:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 146 ]  
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[quote author=“Eaton Shirdlu”]One prototypical conversation with Bad_Conduct ...


People are still doing that ... and expecting something that’s in some way, shape or form meaningful to come of it?

Very odd.

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 24 January 2007 09:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 147 ]  
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One prototypical conversation with Bad_Conduct

Bad_Conduct wrote:
Even if you are born an athiest, it doesn’t change that you are born into a religion.


Atheist wrote:
Are not.


Bad_Conduct wrote:
Are too.


Atheist wrote:
Are not.


Bad_Conduct wrote:
Are too.


... repeat as many times as necessary…

Another prototypical conversation with Bad_Conduct

Bad_Conduct wrote:
God has no representative on Earth. God doesn’t “Oversee”, he “Is” the Universe.


Atheist wrote:
Is not.


Bad_Conduct wrote:
Is too.


Atheist wrote:
Is not.


Bad_Conduct wrote:
Is too.


... repeat as many times as necessary…

Note the similarities. Try another one:

Atheist wrote:
Religion divides people.


Bad_Conduct wrote:
Does not.


Atheist wrote:
Does too.


Bad_Conduct wrote:
Not.


These exchanges are becoming downright metronomic. If you want to hone your set of atheistic arguments, you need to find a better interlocutor. Or maybe you find this sort of thing entertaining.

A perfect example of Atheists jumping to conclusions and making up false stories. Also another example of an atheist trying to lower my level when he can no longer bring himself up.

This is just a lengthy version of “Does too.” It seems to contain an argument from personal experience, but is it a response to the question of whether a child is actually “born” into a religion?

Prove otherwise. You can’t. You just make assumptions because you don’t believe in error.

How can something you do to your children after they are born affect their condition at birth?

Heritage. Why is your skin the colour that it is?

What if you’re born to atheist parents?

Than you’re religion is being an atheist, doesn’t mean they won’t convert outside of atheism.

The Bad_Conduct religion in a nutshell: If you understand the Bible correctly, the foundation of the law, you will never make a mistake. Like having sex before you’re married.

I’m not religious.

The brain tumor happened because of mistakes the 23-year-old made because he didn’t read his bible. Naturally, he is at fault for his own brain tumor. Like, believers never get brain tumors.

The brain tumor happened for scientific reasons. Most likely something avoidable.

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Posted: 24 January 2007 12:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 148 ]  
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[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”][quote author=“Eaton Shirdlu”] How can something you do to your children after they are born affect their condition at birth?

Heritage. Why is your skin the colour that it is?

Ohhhhh-kaaaaay. Let’s try this again, shall we?

How can something you do to your children after they are born affect their condition at birth?

Read the question again, please, to make sure you understand it fully:

How can something you do to your children after they are born affect their condition at birth?

And speaking of “heritage”, Baddy, why is my skin the color that it is? Is my skin color the same color that Adam and Eve had? Keep in mind that my skin has a grayish-green cast to it right at the moment, because I am about to barf after examining your latest crazy ramblings. Where do you get this stuff? Does somebody write your jokes for you? If so, you really need to hire a better writer.

[quote author=“Eaton Shirdlu”]What if you’re born to atheist parents?

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Then you’re religion is being an atheist, doesn’t mean they won’t convert outside of atheism.

Sure, anyone can convert. How does that impinge on your argument? Since a believer can become an atheist, and an atheist can become a believer, what exactly is the significance of “the religion you are born into”? Is it wrong for someone who is “born atheist” to convert to some other religion?

And by the way, atheism is not a religion. It’s the absence of religion.

I’m not religious.

What do you mean? You say you believe in God. You’re religious. You’re here trying to tell people what God is. If you just believed in God and never told anyone about it, nobody would think that you’re religious. You look at a rock and see god, and say so. I look at a rock and see a rock. One of us is clearly having a delusional hallucination. See if you can guess which one! You’re a religious nutcase who likes to talk about god.

Baddy (or is that Batty?) - you’re lots and lots of fun. You’re a laugh a minute. I’m starting to like you. I think I like you now just as much as I do my pet gerbil, although you have slightly less wit and charm than he does. :D

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Posted: 24 January 2007 03:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 149 ]  
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How can something you do to your children after they are born affect their condition at birth?

Cloning, after they are born, you can clone a recreate the same birth. Thus, the clone’s birth condition is affected entirely after the original is born.

Second example: Premature birth.

And speaking of “heritage”, Baddy, why is my skin the color that it is? Is my skin color the same color that Adam and Eve had?

Depends on your climate and your family. I assume skin-colour has more to do with human history than evolution. If people of mix-race were socially acceptable 500 years ago, I’m sure racism today would not be an issue.

Keep in mind that my skin has a grayish-green cast to it right at the moment, because I am about to barf after examining your latest crazy ramblings.

I’ll hold your hair for you.

Where do you get this stuff? Does somebody write your jokes for you? If so, you really need to hire a better writer.

Do I sound like George Bush? Oh, you said jokes! I must have seen State of the Union speech.

Sure, anyone can convert. How does that impinge on your argument? Since a believer can become an atheist, and an atheist can become a believer, what exactly is the significance of “the religion you are born into”? Is it wrong for someone who is “born atheist” to convert to some other religion?

Family. If you decide to be an atheist and your family is christian, there may be a fued between the two. Of course, the atheist may be telling their family there is no God, and the family may be telling their son that Jesus loves them anyway.

And by the way, atheism is not a religion. It’s the absence of religion.

It went from 10 Gods, than two Gods, than one God, than no God….
Atheism is a religion. That’s why you call yourself “Atheist” instead of “not religious”. You have atheist meetings, discuss athiest topics and quote athiest authors. Basically, you guys are just selling your stock in one religion, and buying into another.

Guilable :D

You look at a rock and see god, and say so. I look at a rock and see a rock.

I look at a rock and see a rock. A rock is a part of God, a small part. You look at a rock and see a rock. A rock is a part of the universe, a small part. What’s the difference?

I believe the Universe (and beyond) is self aware and makes conscience decisions.

Why am I not religious? I don’t spend money on religion.

Baddy (or is that Batty?) - you’re lots and lots of fun. You’re a laugh a minute. I’m starting to like you. I think I like you now just as much as I do my pet gerbil, although you have slightly less wit and charm than he does.

I’m a good person most of the time, and I’m not stupid. You are right, sometimes I just argue for the sake of the arguement. Besides, three points for creation!

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Posted: 24 January 2007 03:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 150 ]  
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It went from 10 Gods, than two Gods, than one God, than no God….
Atheism is a religion. That’s why you call yourself “Atheist” instead of “not religious”. You have atheist meetings, discuss athiest topics and quote athiest authors. Basically, you guys are just selling your stock in one religion, and buying into another.

Umm… no. Religion is an adherence to codified beliefs. Atheism is a lack of belief in a god(s). There is no belief, hence, there is no religion. Atheism is not that you believe there is no god(s). Atheism is that you have no belief in god(s). This is not semantics, because one definition still maintains a belief while the other removes oneself from having any belief at all.

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