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The Dawkins Delusion
Posted: 16 January 2007 07:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]  
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[quote author=“miller”]I don’t think that a person can “honestly” say he believes in God and claim to be christian. In order to believe that you have to discart the other gods. You have to positively assert that Allah doesn’t exist.

Allah is the same god as God. (Christianity and Islam say different things about God, but that doesn’t mean they’re talking about different things. One person might say that Dubya is the greatest president since Lincoln, and another person might say that he’s an evil moron - they’re saying different things about Dubya, but they’re talking about the same person.)

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Posted: 16 January 2007 09:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]  
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Climacus said
Allah is the same god as God. (Christianity and Islam say different things about God, but that doesn’t mean they’re talking about different things. One person might say that Dubya is the greatest president since Lincoln, and another person might say that he’s an evil moron - they’re saying different things about Dubya, but they’re talking about the same person.)

Then why aren’t you worshipping allah, praying five times per day, demanding the jizya.  If they worship the same god as you, why are you inferior in the eye of the muslim?  Go to Saudi Arabia and demand to worship “your same God.” If a muslim changes to christianity, they are an apostate and are at risk of being put to death.

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Posted: 16 January 2007 10:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]  
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[quote author=“Climacus”][quote author=“miller”]I don’t think that a person can “honestly” say he believes in God and claim to be christian. In order to believe that you have to discart the other gods. You have to positively assert that Allah doesn’t exist.

Allah is the same god as God. (Christianity and Islam say different things about God, but that doesn’t mean they’re talking about different things. One person might say that Dubya is the greatest president since Lincoln, and another person might say that he’s an evil moron - they’re saying different things about Dubya, but they’re talking about the same person.)

This type of unreasoning is common amongst believers. That’s why they “fight” so much with atheists instead of fighting each other I’m talking about “discourse fight”. Can you please explain to me how ca a god that didn’t sent his son to die for our sins (aka Allah) be the same with a god that sent his son to die for our sins (aka Jehova)? If you still think they are the same can you please tell me if you think that Zeus is different than Jehova? And why?
If I would choose to believe in a god that will send christians to hell would you still think I’m talking about the same god as yours?

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Posted: 16 January 2007 03:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]  
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This type of unreasoning is common amongst believers. That’s why they “fight” so much with atheists instead of fighting each other I’m talking about “discourse fight”. Can you please explain to me how ca a god that didn’t sent his son to die for our sins (aka Allah) be the same with a god that sent his son to die for our sins (aka Jehova)? If you still think they are the same can you please tell me if you think that Zeus is different than Jehova? And why?
If I would choose to believe in a god that will send christians to hell would you still think I’m talking about the same god as yours?

Atheists fight with believers equally as much, if not more so. Regardless of how someone wants to live, be it follow Muhammud or follow Jesus, God is God. All religions could be wrong and we could all go to hell, it’s possible. It’s God himself that I defend. Zeus is Zues, he was never the one God who had complete and ultimate power. That’s why Zeus faded away (real or not) and people began to accept that all things have one point of origin, not a numerous amount of entities and influences.

Zeus, with as much control over the elements as he did, did not have the supreme power. He was merely a creation of God.

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Posted: 16 January 2007 04:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]  
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[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]

This type of unreasoning is common amongst believers. That’s why they “fight” so much with atheists instead of fighting each other I’m talking about “discourse fight”. Can you please explain to me how ca a god that didn’t sent his son to die for our sins (aka Allah) be the same with a god that sent his son to die for our sins (aka Jehova)? If you still think they are the same can you please tell me if you think that Zeus is different than Jehova? And why?
If I would choose to believe in a god that will send christians to hell would you still think I’m talking about the same god as yours?

Atheists fight with believers equally as much, if not more so. Regardless of how someone wants to live, be it follow Muhammud or follow Jesus, God is God. All religions could be wrong and we could all go to hell, it’s possible. It’s God himself that I defend. Zeus is Zues, he was never the one God who had complete and ultimate power. That’s why Zeus faded away (real or not) and people began to accept that all things have one point of origin, not a numerous amount of entities and influences.

Zeus, with as much control over the elements as he did, did not have the supreme power. He was merely a creation of God.

Exactly… God is God. Jehova is Jehova and not God. Allah is Allah and not God. You cannot be claiming to defend God if you speak about “him”. Do you know God’s gender?

I don’t know why do you use the word “God” for as the “thing” that was the origin of all things. Why don’t use “Tao”? It’s more appropriate. More, you won’t create any confusion when you tell a christian that you believe in God. He may wrongly believe you are talking about his/her god. Do you imagine this idiotic dialogue?
You: I believe in God (in your mind: “the point of origin for all things”)
Christian: I believe in God too (in his mind: “the bearded old man who molded Adam from dust”)
You: Isn’t it God great? (in your mind: “the source of this infinite universe”)
Christian: Oh, yeah (in his mind: “I mean who could come up with the genius ideea of eternal tornment for buddist monks”)
You: The one and only (in your mind: “the greatest conceivable thing”)
Christian: Yes, the one and only (in his mind: “Trinity”).
LOL

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Posted: 16 January 2007 05:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]  
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Bad_Conduct wrote:

Zeus, with as much control over the elements as he did, did not have the supreme power. He was merely a creation of God.

And what about when the next more powerful God comes along?

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Posted: 16 January 2007 05:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]  
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[quote author=“milanst”]Then why aren’t you worshipping allah, praying five times per day, demanding the jizya.

Because I think they’re wrong about God.

If they worship the same god as you, why are you inferior in the eye of the muslim?

Because they think I’m wrong about God.

A lot of them think I still get to go to heaven, though. According to the Koran , Christians believe in Allah and will receive divine reward.

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Posted: 16 January 2007 05:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]  
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[quote author=“miller”]Can you please explain to me how ca a god that didn’t sent his son to die for our sins (aka Allah) be the same with a god that sent his son to die for our sins (aka Jehova)?

“Allah” is just the name for God in Arabic, as is “Gott” in German, “Dieu” in French, “Dios” in Spanish, etc.

Muslims believe that God did not send his son. Christians do. I think the Christians are right, and the Muslims are wrong - but the Muslims are wrong about God.

If you still think they are the same can you please tell me if you think that Zeus is different than Jehova?

The ancient Greeks were polytheists. They would have seen the Abrahamic God as just another god in the pantheon, distinct from Zeus.

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Posted: 17 January 2007 02:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]  
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[quote author=“Climacus”]
Because they think I’m wrong about God.

A lot of them think I still get to go to heaven, though. According to the Koran , Christians believe in Allah and will receive divine reward.

So some of them thing you still get to haven although you are wrong about God. If God exist than atheist are wrong about God so they get to go to heaven.

Please use correct language: “according to a certain interpretation of the Kuran, Christians believe in Allah and will receive divine reward”. That’s a good one: According to the Kuran, christians are muslims. I hope they don’t start blowing up themselves while around others.

[quote author=“Climacus”]“Allah” is just the name for God in Arabic, as is “Gott” in German, “Dieu” in French, “Dios” in Spanish, etc.

I know that. The word alone has no importance. What matter is the meaning of the word, what we associate with it. A french saying “Dieu” may reffer to different thing than a muslim saying “Allah”. For example the french guy may reffer to an “old man that will send muslims to hell” while the muslim may reffer to a “something that will send muslims to heaven”.

[quote author=“Climacus”]Muslims believe that God did not send his son. Christians do. I think the Christians are right, and the Muslims are wrong - but the Muslims are wrong about God.

You haven’t explained how can 2 people, one being right and one being wrong, can talk about the same thing? If I talk about a yellow apple and you talk about a red apple, are we talking about the same apple?

[quote author=“Climacus”]The ancient Greeks were polytheists. They would have seen the Abrahamic God as just another god in the pantheon, distinct from Zeus.

Yes, but you haven’t prove me that the ancient greeks were wrong so maybe Yehova is another god in an non-existing pantheon.  :wink:

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Posted: 17 January 2007 04:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]  
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[quote author=“JGrice02”][quote author=“stardusk”][quote author=“JGrice02”]Joad, I understand your position.

By the way man (not of the United States); your hero Mcgrath either in ignorance or willingly lying, claims that Antony Flew had converted to Christianity…he did not; he merely became a deist, which has precious little to do with a Christian God and more to do with the atheist position he formerly held. Listen to his talk again where he claims that…

Actually, McGreth said the following: “How many people do you know who, not believing in Father Christmas at the age of six, do start believing him at the age of eighteen, or 35, or 50, or even, in the case of Anthony Flew, a recent mover away from atheism to belief in God, in their 70’s.”  And that is exactly correct.  He made no suggestion whatever that Flew converted to Christianity, only to belief in God. 

The next time you tell someone to “listen to his talk again where he claims that” it might help if you are actually right.  Otherwise, people might accuse YOU of being ignorant or YOU of lying.  I won’t go that far, but if the roles were reversed I’m quite certain you would.

Bah, I would hardly call Deism ‘belief’ in God…and it was clear he was insinuating that Flew had become a Christian…

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Posted: 17 January 2007 04:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]  
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[quote author=“Climacus”][quote author=“miller”]Can you please explain to me how ca a god that didn’t sent his son to die for our sins (aka Allah) be the same with a god that sent his son to die for our sins (aka Jehova)?

“Allah” is just the name for God in Arabic, as is “Gott” in German, “Dieu” in French, “Dios” in Spanish, etc.

Muslims believe that God did not send his son. Christians do. I think the Christians are right, and the Muslims are wrong - but the Muslims are wrong about God.

If you still think they are the same can you please tell me if you think that Zeus is different than Jehova?

The ancient Greeks were polytheists. They would have seen the Abrahamic God as just another god in the pantheon, distinct from Zeus.

The ancient Semites were polytheists as well and Jaweh is just one of a dozen of their deities…

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Get with it. Millions of galaxies of hundreds of millions of stars, and a speck on one in a blink. That’s us, lost in space. The cop, you, me… Who notices?
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Posted: 18 January 2007 07:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]  
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[quote author=“miller”]So some of them thing you still get to haven although you are wrong about God. If God exist than atheist are wrong about God so they get to go to heaven.

No, the “people of the book” get in. As far as I know, I don’t think there’s anything in the Koran about atheists qualifying for divine reward.

That’s a good one: According to the Kuran, christians are muslims.

Were you able to understand the quote? It distinguishes Muslims from Christians. Most crucially, Christians don’t recognize Mohammed as a prophet. But they still get divine reward.

You haven’t explained how can 2 people, one being right and one being wrong, can talk about the same thing? If I talk about a yellow apple and you talk about a red apple, are we talking about the same apple?

We could be. We could be looking at one apple. In reality it’s red. But your eyes are messed up, so you see it as yellow, and you call it yellow. I say it’s red, and I’m right. You say it’s yellow, and you’re wrong. But we’re talking about the same apple.

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Posted: 19 January 2007 05:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]  
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[quote author=“Climacus”]

You haven’t explained how can 2 people, one being right and one being wrong, can talk about the same thing? If I talk about a yellow apple and you talk about a red apple, are we talking about the same apple?

We could be. We could be looking at one apple. In reality it’s red. But your eyes are messed up, so you see it as yellow, and you call it yellow. I say it’s red, and I’m right. You say it’s yellow, and you’re wrong. But we’re talking about the same apple.

The best way to decide such a controversy is to use some sort of photometer and measure the wavelength of the light that is being scattered by the surface of the apple.

All of which goes to show that Climacus, though he is an accomplished apologist, is a really shitty analogist. rolleyes

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Posted: 19 January 2007 05:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]  
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[quote author=“Salt Creek”]All of which goes to show that Climacus, though he is an accomplished apologist, is a really shitty analogist. rolleyes

I didn’t choose the analogy, miller did. It’s too bad you thought it was shitty. Maybe he’ll apologize.

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Posted: 19 January 2007 09:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]  
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[quote author=“Climacus”][quote author=“Salt Creek”]All of which goes to show that Climacus, though he is an accomplished apologist, is a really shitty analogist. rolleyes

I didn’t choose the analogy, miller did. It’s too bad you thought it was shitty. Maybe he’ll apologize.

You did make the analogy. You mentioned a problem with someone’s eyes. It is a shitty analogy.

If one person is talking about a yellow apple and another person is talking about a red apple, they are talking about different fucking apples.

But you’re more than used to borrowing other people’s texts in order to think you’re making a point. And then denying it was your doing. Your errors are all second-hand. Does that make them less egregious, or moreso?

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