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Mysticism and rationalism…
Posted: 20 January 2007 04:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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[quote author=“Joad”]Love is the Law.

Are you talking about Christianity? Because that’s a pretty good summary, as far as 4-word summaries go.

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Posted: 20 January 2007 05:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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Climacus,

If Christianity was love, it would have no need of gods.

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Posted: 21 January 2007 01:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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[quote author=“burt”] :?:

It’s not as though I know anything special.  It’s just that the notion that mystical awareness is either easy to attain and/or commonplace doesn’t jibe with empirical reality.

I agree with the poster that started this thread:  anyone, by virtue of being human, can experience what the mystic experiences, but there is a pilgrimage involved.  It might be right in front of us, plain as day, right now, but that doesn’t mean we can automatically get it. 

The way to “salvation” - however you want to define either of the terms - is what religion, philosophy, and simply living an examined life are all about.  There are a couple of zillion ways; libraries are filled.  Most assume a journey of some sort requiring at least a modicum of effort.

If you want something easy, become a Jesus Freak and you’ll get “cheap grace”:  salvation by simply believing something without effort or actual change of attitude.  Or simply ingest 1000 mircograms of Sandoz acid, a couple of mescaline buds, or a few psilocybin mushrooms, and in 20 minutes you’ll be seeing visions of unity where there once was diversity.

I won’t presume to tell you or anyone which is the correct choice.  As if I actually knew.  rolleyes

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Posted: 21 January 2007 03:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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[quote author=“mahahaha”][quote author=“burt”] :?:

It’s not as though I know anything special.  It’s just that the notion that mystical awareness is either easy to attain and/or commonplace doesn’t jibe with empirical reality.

I agree with the poster that started this thread:  anyone, by virtue of being human, can experience what the mystic experiences, but there is a pilgrimage involved.  It might be right in front of us, plain as day, right now, but that doesn’t mean we can automatically get it. 

The way to “salvation” - however you want to define either of the terms - is what religion, philosophy, and simply living an examined life are all about.  There are a couple of zillion ways; libraries are filled.  Most assume a journey of some sort requiring at least a modicum of effort.

If you want something easy, become a Jesus Freak and you’ll get “cheap grace”:  salvation by simply believing something without effort or actual change of attitude.  Or simply ingest 1000 mircograms of Sandoz acid, a couple of mescaline buds, or a few psilocybin mushrooms, and in 20 minutes you’ll be seeing visions of unity where there once was diversity.

I won’t presume to tell you or anyone which is the correct choice.  As if I actually knew.  rolleyes

The only point that I was making is that any experience of recognition of a unity _is_ a mystical experience.  If you are talking about the sort of mystical experience that comes through intense prayer, meditation, or other work then that is the same kind, but of course far more meaningful and life changing.  But think about it—what is it that allows you, or anybody to experience the sudden recognition that a collection of different things are united under a higher level idea or concept?  Saying “emergence” is a cop-out, using a word to hide the mystery.

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Posted: 21 January 2007 09:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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[quote author=“burt”]The only point that I was making is that any experience of recognition of a unity _is_ a mystical experience.  If you are talking about the sort of mystical experience that comes through intense prayer, meditation, or other work then that is the same kind, but of course far more meaningful and life changing.  But think about it—what is it that allows you, or anybody to experience the sudden recognition that a collection of different things are united under a higher level idea or concept?  Saying “emergence” is a cop-out, using a word to hide the mystery.

Gotcha.  What I was getting at was the whole enchilada, also sometimes referred to as “spiritual enlightenment.”  Not commonplace; not easy to attain; impossible to define, translate, or interpret without betraying.

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Posted: 21 January 2007 11:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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[quote author=“mahahaha”][quote author=“burt”]The only point that I was making is that any experience of recognition of a unity _is_ a mystical experience.  If you are talking about the sort of mystical experience that comes through intense prayer, meditation, or other work then that is the same kind, but of course far more meaningful and life changing.  But think about it—what is it that allows you, or anybody to experience the sudden recognition that a collection of different things are united under a higher level idea or concept?  Saying “emergence” is a cop-out, using a word to hide the mystery.

Gotcha.  What I was getting at was the whole enchilada, also sometimes referred to as “spiritual enlightenment.”  Not commonplace; not easy to attain; impossible to define, translate, or interpret without betraying.

Didn’t realize that we were playing gotcha.  I still say that if you can get to the point where you grasp how it is that you are able to recognize any unity then you are pretty close to complete enlightenment.  (Recall in the Parmenides where the young Socrates gets called on the question of whether of not there are forms for only the exalted things, or for mundane things as well. 

“Those societies that tolerate shoddiness in philosophy because it is an exalted calling, and disparage excellence in plumbing because it is a base trade—neither their theories nor their pipes will hold water.”  Anon.

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Posted: 21 January 2007 11:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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[quote author=“burt”]Didn’t realize that we were playing gotcha.

We weren’t.  What I meant by “gotcha” was “I understand you.” 

I guess this just illustrates the inadequacy of communicating with words, which mean different things to different people, and which more or less proves my point.

Again, I think it is meaningless to talk about what either “mystical experience” OR “spiritual enlightenment” are, or may be.  They are existential and experiential.  Describing and interpreting them betray their truth in the translation.  We should strive to duplicate, personally,  the experience, as the original post in this thread set forth.

Not argue, debate, or play “gotcha.”  That’s all a bunch of dialectical garbage, anyway, and is ultimately worthless

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Posted: 21 January 2007 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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[quote author=“mahahaha”][quote author=“burt”]Didn’t realize that we were playing gotcha.

We weren’t.  What I meant by “gotcha” was “I understand you.” 

I guess this just illustrates the inadequacy of communicating with words, which mean different things to different people, and which more or less proves my point.

Again, I think it is meaningless to talk about what either “mystical experience” OR “spiritual enlightenment” are, or may be.  They are existential and experiential.  Describing and interpreting them betray their truth in the translation.  We should strive to duplicate, personally,  the experience, as the original post in this thread set forth.

Not argue, debate, or play “gotcha.”  That’s all a bunch of dialectical garbage, anyway, and is ultimately worthless

Gotcha LOL

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