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Help me follow scripture.
Posted: 11 May 2005 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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Exodus is the great chapter of the Bible that brought us the 10 commandments - widely regarded as venerable moral guidelines.  I know as a good Christian I should follow them.  I'm wondering, what about the rest of Exodus.  There are some peculiar guidelines in there - like this one:

Exodus 21:17 Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death.

I have a young daughter.  I surely don't want to put her to death for "cursing" or "smiting" me (as another passage dictates).  Was this scripture meant for states to adhere to or am I personally expected to follow this?  I find this quite confusing.  If I'm not supposed to follow this, is the bible in error?  Maybe this rule is no longer applicable but was at one time?  Any help would be appreciated.

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Posted: 11 May 2005 04:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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The Bible contains abundant potential immoral lessons. A big one that comes to mind involves Abraham almost murdering his own child, and as a result, becoming a Biblical hero. Kierkegaard found this to be amazing.

Most of the Bible is currently ignored by modern preachers because most of the Bible does not readily conform to the moral beliefs of modern preachers. Preachers typically can only formulate the lessons they feel motivated to teach from a relatively small selection of scriptures. A preacher could just as easily ignore the scriptures that are commonly emphasized today, and instead emphasize parts of the Bible that are not frequently examined. Very odd moral lessons—i.e., proposing slavery as being proper—could be argued from such scriptures, but any preacher attempting to teach this way would risk being ostracized. The fact remains that, if the Bible is seen as holy, that ostracized preacher would be acting in accordance with his God, as long as he is teaching lessons he honestly believes in.

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Posted: 12 May 2005 01:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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If you want a real look at biblical “family values” see Gen 19:30-38.  Some gene pools are best allowed to end!

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http://powerlessnolonger.com

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Posted: 12 May 2005 05:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Wait, let’s take a step back.  Are the Ten Commandments so great?
I’d give a little spiel on the subject, but George Carlin has already done so admirably.  To paraphrase, he points out that if you boil them down and throw away the authoritarian/dogmatic ones, you’re left with something along the lines of the Golden Rule.  (Carlin makes this observation a lot funnier.)
Technically, though, if we say the Christian God sounds like a twisted, bi-polar egotist, we’re as guilty of wrongdoing as if we executed our children for gainsaying us.

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Posted: 12 May 2005 11:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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From my anthropology class in college, I learned about a common practice of pre-christian eskimo cultures.

  Traditionally, the male eskimo would offer his wife to a guest.
If the guest refused to sleep with the male’s wife, the male would
take this as a grave insult and kill the guest. This was commonly
acceptable in Eskimo culture until the Europeans christianized them.

  In some amazonian tribes (and I would suspect other primitive peoples)
it is acceptable to this day for 60 year old males to have sexual relations
with 13 year old females. Does any of this mean these people are “evil”?
They are only doing what their culture says is acceptable.

  The people in the “holy land” were no different. “Evil” is something that is
determined solely by culture,nothing else. Does that mean there is no room for spirituality and no reasons that people should refrain from obeying the “golden rule”?Not at all, from the perspective of alternate
forms of spirituality. Before I explain, I must preface my explanation by
saying that I don’t neccessarily accept “alternative spirituality” since
like christianity and all other forms of spirituality,it is based on insufficient
evidence.


  Anyway, there are many alternative forms of spirituality (including many eastern ones and some in the west like kabbalah) that seem to GENERALLY accept the following:

  God and/or the universe, does not care one whit about what we do.
Everything is permitted,but we are simply warned our behavior,harmful
or helpful, will have consequences. “Evil” exists and must exist,it’s a dirty job, but someone’s got to do it. The only thing is, it is up to the person whether or not they wish to participate. From this springs the notion of Karma etc….As a matter of fact,you will even find this line of thinking in
the bible(It’s there,although I don’t remember chapter and verse). Basically it goes something like this: “Evil must exist,but woe to the man who evil works through”. In these cases, a person should feel it is ultimately in it’s long-term interests to avoid harming others(often this includes non-human lifeforms and even rocks) as much as possible. So being compassionate and aiding others is also in a person’s long-term interests from this perspective.

  This is, (albeit a crude one) a brief synopsis of how many alternative spirtualities view the problem of evil. As an agnostic, I feel it may, or may
not be valid. If it is not and the universe is strictly material in origin and being, then “good” and “evil” are purely subjective terms and the only
arguements for avoiding “evil” are emotional and practical ones. Either way, I think all the folks in the biblical times and lands were doing is abiding by cultural norms,nothing more,nothing less. These norms found
their way into scripture and have been causing alot of theological/ethical tail-chasing ever since.

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Posted: 12 May 2005 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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[quote author=“Anonymous”]I think all the folks in the biblical times and lands were doing is abiding by cultural norms,nothing more,nothing less. These norms found
their way into scripture and have been causing alot of theological/ethical tail-chasing ever since.

It sure is hard to believe that such a severe form of punishment was ever a cultural norm.  Killing one’s offspring appears to be against all biological instinct.  I don’t remember anything from any history class or book.  The societal examples you gave are not hard to believe but killing offspring as disciplinary measure? How would that culture even survive?

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Posted: 12 May 2005 11:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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It sure is hard to believe that such a severe form of punishment was ever a cultural norm.  Killing one’s offspring appears to be against all biological instinct.  I don’t remember anything from any history class or book.  The societal examples you gave are not hard to believe but killing offspring as disciplinary measure? How would that culture even survive?

Humm, maybe this form of religion would do a better job at stopping the world population explosion than science :twisted:
Though it would be survival of the goodest instead rolleyes

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Posted: 16 May 2005 02:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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I suggest that you try to decide what point of view you want the bible to support - then you go to a bible search engine (also need to decide which version to search) - then using synonym lists for the words that describe your point of view, enter queries in these databases to find the bible passages that support your point of view - simple as that

for example, gloria and kenneth copeland and the other “prosperity ministers” like to cite specific passages strewn throughout the bible that relate to money and prosperity matters - there are quite a few of them - then they find ways to preach endlessly about how “god” wants his chosen people (presumably the “believers” and “followers”) to l"live long and thrive” - in other words, do whatever you think “god” “wants” you to do (which is what the copelands say you should do), and you’ll live to be 120 and you’ll be filthy rich - that’s “god’s way” accorking to them

you can choole a different point of view, such as Joel Osteen’s “just be good” theme - and you can also preach endlessly about that theme and how the bible, and, therefore “god”, supports that point of view

remember Jim and Tammy Bakker? - what a hoot they were in the 1980s!

Fran Lorin

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Posted: 16 May 2005 03:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Fran Lorin

web page hint: avoid having pop-ups

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Posted: 16 May 2005 03:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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thanks, but I cannot afford to remove those very annoying pop-ups - I am not a “nonprofit” organization - anyway, the name “guest” is equally annoying

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Posted: 30 May 2005 02:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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[quote author=“ShieldAxe”]Exodus is the great chapter of the Bible that brought us the 10 commandments - widely regarded as venerable moral guidelines.  I know as a good Christian I should follow them.  I’m wondering, what about the rest of Exodus.  There are some peculiar guidelines in there - like this one:

Exodus 21:17 Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death.

I have a young daughter.  I surely don’t want to put her to death for “cursing” or “smiting” me (as another passage dictates).  Was this scripture meant for states to adhere to or am I personally expected to follow this?  I find this quite confusing.  If I’m not supposed to follow this, is the bible in error?  Maybe this rule is no longer applicable but was at one time?  Any help would be appreciated.

I hope I am not unduly cynical when I see this post as a jeer, not an honest enquiry.

Here are a couple of bible verses that seem applicable to this situation:

“And Judas went and hanged himself.”
“Go thou and do likewise.”
“What you are about to do, do quickly.”

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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Posted: 30 May 2005 07:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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[quote author=“roger_pearse”][quote author=“ShieldAxe”]Exodus is the great chapter of the Bible that brought us the 10 commandments - widely regarded as venerable moral guidelines.  I know as a good Christian I should follow them.  I’m wondering, what about the rest of Exodus.  There are some peculiar guidelines in there - like this one:

Exodus 21:17 Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death.

I have a young daughter.  I surely don’t want to put her to death for “cursing” or “smiting” me (as another passage dictates).  Was this scripture meant for states to adhere to or am I personally expected to follow this?  I find this quite confusing.  If I’m not supposed to follow this, is the bible in error?  Maybe this rule is no longer applicable but was at one time?  Any help would be appreciated.

I hope I am not unduly cynical when I see this post as a jeer, not an honest enquiry.

Yeah it’s a little of both.  The question still stands unanswered.

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Posted: 30 May 2005 10:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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[quote author=“ShieldAxe”][quote author=“roger_pearse”][quote author=“ShieldAxe”]Exodus is the great chapter of the Bible that brought us the 10 commandments - widely regarded as venerable moral guidelines.  I know as a good Christian I should follow them.  I’m wondering, what about the rest of Exodus.  There are some peculiar guidelines in there - like this one:

Exodus 21:17 Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death.

I have a young daughter.  I surely don’t want to put her to death for “cursing” or “smiting” me (as another passage dictates).  Was this scripture meant for states to adhere to or am I personally expected to follow this?  I find this quite confusing.  If I’m not supposed to follow this, is the bible in error?  Maybe this rule is no longer applicable but was at one time?  Any help would be appreciated.

I hope I am not unduly cynical when I see this post as a jeer, not an honest enquiry.

Yeah it’s a little of both.  The question still stands unanswered.

Not really.  And, of course, it isn’t really a question, is it?  It’s a jeer.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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Posted: 30 May 2005 04:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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[quote author=“roger_pearse”][quote author=“ShieldAxe”][quote author=“roger_pearse”][quote author=“ShieldAxe”]Exodus is the great chapter of the Bible that brought us the 10 commandments - widely regarded as venerable moral guidelines.  I know as a good Christian I should follow them.  I’m wondering, what about the rest of Exodus.  There are some peculiar guidelines in there - like this one:

Exodus 21:17 Whoever curses his father or mother shall be put to death.

I have a young daughter.  I surely don’t want to put her to death for “cursing” or “smiting” me (as another passage dictates).  Was this scripture meant for states to adhere to or am I personally expected to follow this?  I find this quite confusing.  If I’m not supposed to follow this, is the bible in error?  Maybe this rule is no longer applicable but was at one time?  Any help would be appreciated.

I hope I am not unduly cynical when I see this post as a jeer, not an honest enquiry.

Yeah it’s a little of both.  The question still stands unanswered.

Not really.  And, of course, it isn’t really a question, is it?  It’s a jeer.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Actually its a series of questions that have not been answered.  Apparently this type of question is so difficult to address you abandon any attempt and call it a jeer.  Fine.  I know it’s taboo to talk about the barbarity of the bible. You choose to continue to abide by the taboo.  Can anyone else speak to this?

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Posted: 03 June 2005 12:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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[quote author=“Anonymous”]“Evil” is something that is determined solely by culture,nothing else. ... If ... the universe is strictly material in origin and being, then “good” and “evil” are purely subjective terms and the only arguements for avoiding “evil” are emotional and practical ones.

I take it, then, that you consider the Nuremberg trials merely window-dressing by the powerful; that anti-racism and anti-semitism merely excuses by those who can do so to harrass those with whom they disagree; prison sentences for paedophiles merely ‘emotional and practical’ actions.

The difference between this position of moral indifferentism and immoral behaviour seems to me tiny.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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Posted: 03 June 2005 07:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Roger, Anonymous did not say that good and evil are fictons, but that they are the products of culture. Your versions of good and evil are different from what the Hindu believe and these vary consistenctly around the world.  In some countries older men marry 11 year old girls, in America these are considered paedophiles - although it is considered evil in most every country where an adult preys on young children in sexual matters (some religious groups exempted here).

There probably are some universally evil actions (rape and/or the sexual molestation of children), but those are for practical and emotional reasons - as Anonymous wrote.  Evil is not some kind of Satanic force that spreads its events in all sorts of innocent places. Evil is a judgement that we as a society make on certain acts that we find intolerable or repugnant - racism (not anti-racism as you misquoted).  So of course it is relative to the culture.  Don’t you ever wonder why evil actions are different for different cultures in our world?

Bob

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