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Help me follow scripture.
Posted: 03 June 2005 11:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Okay fine, here is what I think.

The time that line in Exodus was written people were extremely superstitious, they didnt understand alot of the world around them, they certainly didnt understand earthquakes and tidal waves, or global weather patterns.

So their world was magical and mysterious and out of their control, hence superstitions.  There are several superstitions that have to do with words, some like two people saying the same thing at the same time that is still around today, other more serious ones like believing if you said the name of a God or Gods out loud, they would notice you and horrible things would then happen.

So just like they believed in witchs and wizards, they also believed words had power, so a “curse” which is meaningless to us today as mere fun profanity, was to them a “violent” act against someone with malicious intent.

That is my take on that passage.

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Posted: 04 June 2005 06:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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[quote author=“CanZen”]Roger, Anonymous did not say that good and evil are fictons, but that they are the products of culture.

What he said was:

[quote author=“Anonymous”]“Evil” is something that is determined solely by culture,nothing else. ... If ... the universe is strictly material in origin and being, then “good” and “evil” are purely subjective terms and the only arguements for avoiding “evil” are emotional and practical ones.

Your versions of good and evil are different from what the Hindu believe and these vary consistenctly around the world….
Don’t you ever wonder why evil actions are different for different cultures in our world?

Again, I refer you to my question. If you assert that good and evil are merely relative terms—against the consensus of moralists for centuries—do you then assert that Nuremberg etc are merely examples of the powerful imposing their will?  If so, why not say so?  If not, then does not your argument fall apart?

The powerful of our day wish to say that there is no right and wrong, since they belong to the selfish generation.  They do not apply this, however, to anything they wish to mark as right or wrong, do they?

Your comments about other cultures seem to me a red-herring, btw.  All men know morality; every culture corrupts it in the direction of the wishes of the powerful.  But every victim of oppression protests against injustice.  If we took the view you suggest, their protest is meaningless.  In my view it is not; and it is immoral for us to side with the oppressors in this way.

Just my two cents of course.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[ Edited: 05 June 2005 09:18 PM by ]
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Posted: 04 June 2005 07:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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[quote author=“Iisbliss”]Okay fine, here is what I think.

The time that line in Exodus was written people were extremely superstitious, they didnt understand alot of the world around them, they certainly didnt understand earthquakes and tidal waves, or global weather patterns.

So their world was magical and mysterious and out of their control, hence superstitions.  There are several superstitions that have to do with words, some like two people saying the same thing at the same time that is still around today, other more serious ones like believing if you said the name of a God or Gods out loud, they would notice you and horrible things would then happen.

So just like they believed in witchs and wizards, they also believed words had power, so a “curse” which is meaningless to us today as mere fun profanity, was to them a “violent” act against someone with malicious intent.

That is my take on that passage.

I think this is a valuable insight into the history of cursing, something I hadn’t heard about or thought of before. Thanks very much, Iisbliss.

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Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Posted: 06 June 2005 07:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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Poor roger-p, yes, SheildAxe probably is jeering.  And why not?  False doctrine should be ridiculed publicly and often.

As for the pitifully overworked ‘moral relativism’ saw you trot out, you miss the point entirely.  While the Universe Herself may not (in fact, IS not) subject to our self-interested ‘moralities’, we are.  This is precisely why you did NOT, and likely never will on this discussion board, read any critique of the ‘golden rule’ among these dissections of biblical scripture.

I was raised Unitarian Universalist and attended services among a majority of agnostics and atheists, my own dear father among them.  And while I myself hold spiritual beliefs, I have observed that the strongest and most consistently reliable moral fiber is to be found among those who choose it solely out of personal conviction without any recourse to ‘god’ or ‘salvation’.

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The road of excess leads to the palace of Wisedom
-William Blake, “Proverbs of Hell”

Life, what is it but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll, “A boat Beneath a Sunny Sky

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Posted: 06 June 2005 08:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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[quote author=“rabbit”]Poor roger-p, yes, SheildAxe probably is jeering.  And why not?  False doctrine should be ridiculed publicly and often.

I saw no post by SheildAxe in this thread.

I take it that you don’t mean that you wish to be the object of frequent public ridicule?  If so, may I point out to you the golden rule.

As for the pitifully overworked ‘moral relativism’ saw you trot out,
you miss the point entirely.

I am pointing out the defect of moral relativism, not advocating it, so I think the mistake is not mine here.

I was raised Unitarian Universalist and attended services among a majority of agnostics and atheists, my own dear father among them.  And while I myself hold spiritual beliefs, I have observed that the strongest and most consistently reliable moral fiber is to be found among those who choose it solely out of personal conviction without any recourse to ‘god’ or ‘salvation’.

The relevance of all this to my comments, tho, seems slender.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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Posted: 06 June 2005 10:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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[quote author=“roger_pearse”][quote author=“rabbit”]Poor roger-p, yes, SheildAxe probably is jeering.  And why not?  False doctrine should be ridiculed publicly and often.

I saw no post by SheildAxe in this thread.

I started it.  rolleyes

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Posted: 06 June 2005 01:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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rog, dear, you may point out the golden rule ad nauseum, but until you live it it’s so much hot air.

As for public ridicule of my beliefs, as they’re not the ‘mainstream’ and I don’t use them to try to dictate public policy, I doubt that most people would bother.  By contrast, the Abrahamic religions, christianity and islam in particular, consistently pursue agressive evangelical agendas.  Their incoherence and intolerance make them vulnerable to criticism and deserving of ridicule.

The only ‘defect’ in ‘moral reletivism’ is the way those of limited mind belabor the concept to numbing effect.

That atheists and agnostics have a firmer grasp on morality than most ‘christians’ is a key observation relative to any critique of scripture which claims to be the ultimate moral resource.

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The road of excess leads to the palace of Wisedom
-William Blake, “Proverbs of Hell”

Life, what is it but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll, “A boat Beneath a Sunny Sky

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Posted: 06 June 2005 09:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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[quote author=“ShieldAxe”][quote author=“roger_pearse”][quote author=“rabbit”]Poor roger-p, yes, SheildAxe probably is jeering.  And why not?  False doctrine should be ridiculed publicly and often.

I saw no post by SheildAxe in this thread.

I started it.  rolleyes

Oops!

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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Posted: 06 June 2005 09:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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[quote author=“rabbit”]rog, dear, you may point out the golden rule ad nauseum….

Insult noted.  I suppose if you can’t deal with a point, you have to resort to this.

That atheists and agnostics have a firmer grasp on morality than most ‘christians’ is a key observation relative to any critique of scripture which claims to be the ultimate moral resource.

That you yourself have moral issues is apparent from your attempts to insult, rather than discuss.  Sadly atheists so often do…

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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Posted: 07 June 2005 04:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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oh, rog!  you so crazy!  LOL

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The road of excess leads to the palace of Wisedom
-William Blake, “Proverbs of Hell”

Life, what is it but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll, “A boat Beneath a Sunny Sky

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Posted: 07 June 2005 05:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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[quote author=“rabbit”]oh, rog!  you so crazy!  LOL

Which further troll leads us to the question: do all you non-Christians approve of trolling or not?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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Posted: 07 June 2005 07:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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:?: ‘trolling’, hmmm, obscure Brit reference.  Even my husband, a UK resident of over thirty years, couldn’t place that one.  Whatever.  I stopped taking you seriously the day I registered here and read one of your posts.

Go back to Beliefnet.com & tell them the rabbit says ‘hi’.  LOL

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The road of excess leads to the palace of Wisedom
-William Blake, “Proverbs of Hell”

Life, what is it but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll, “A boat Beneath a Sunny Sky

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Posted: 07 June 2005 07:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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[quote author=“rabbit”]:?: ‘trolling’, hmmm, obscure Brit reference.  Even my husband, a UK resident of over thirty years, couldn’t place that one.  Whatever.  I stopped taking you seriously the day I registered here and read one of your posts.

Go back to Beliefnet.com & tell them the rabbit says ‘hi’.  LOL

Arguing with Rog is useless.  He ignores or is incapable of comprehending the content posts and complains you aren’t addressing his “points”.  At least champion reponds with decipherable (albeit dogmatic) posts.

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Posted: 07 June 2005 07:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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No answer.  What a surprise…

Are there any intelligent atheists in this forum at all?  Other than these low-grade abusive weenies?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

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Posted: 07 June 2005 08:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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[quote author=“roger_pearse”]No answer.  What a surprise…

Are there any intelligent atheists in this forum at all?  Other than these low-grade abusive weenies?

All the best,

Roger Pearse

Another nonpost from hypocrite Rog.  :shock:

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