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Mia: “Have you even read the Bible?”
Posted: 15 March 2007 12:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 241 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]. . .
. . . I wouldn’t vote for anyone that I knew was corrupt, but as soon as they get into office, they will be corrupt.  When Christianity began, the Caesars were in control.  The NT never criticizes them, even Caligula and Nero.  That’s not what we are supposed to be doing.  You guys don’t like Christians running the show, so run it yourselves. I thought you all wanted to take over.  I’m ready to be the minority party for awhile.  I am not an anarchist - Romans 12:1-4 teaches that government is a separate ministry from the church, and apparently can be run quite adequately by atheists. . . .

Bruce, are you saying that Christians are to be trusted to run things no more adequately than atheists? (Just trying to define things.)

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Posted: 15 March 2007 01:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 242 ]  
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Mia> Ah, right, the end of the world. God made us expressly for the purpose of fulfilling his lust for this big, bloody, cataclysmic war, where he gets to kill off the vast majority of his beloved children. Dear old dad, what a guy.

Na, it’s like a census, except for wholehearted bastards.

Someone was saying that religion provides hope?

Religion provides hope? Na, the people that believe’ embody hope.

This nutball spends millennia building towards his ultimate Plan, this horrifying epic war, where he slaughters the vast majority of people that he created, simply because they were unable or unwilling to worship him. And just think, it all started with a piece of fruit.

Put like that, -sounds pretty bad.

Only the creepiest sort of person could appreciate this storyline, and clearly millions of Christians do. I give it a thumbs-down. Needs a major rewrite.

Given your storyline, I reckon so. But not likely.

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Posted: 15 March 2007 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 243 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]The reason that Christianity does not function well when it gains political power has nothing to do with any incapability on its part - it has everything to do with our own sinful nature. Political power corrupts every system it touches - there will never be a utopia this side of (in Christianity’s view) the second coming of Christ.

[quote author=“Joad”]The more Noble the Utopian Ideal, the greater the death toll.

Christianity, like all other Utopianist ideas, contains an innate assumption that the ends justify the means.

Given that the Ultimate Christian Ideal is happiness beyond comprehension, the means used to reach that end are beyond restraint.

[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]I disagree. The only kind of “Christianity” that seeks a utopia here on this earth is a prostituted, perverted kind. This is why it should stay out of the political arena. The faith that Jesus left us made it clear that his kingdom was not here and now in physical form. It was inward, spiritual. True Christianity needs to be recovered by believers. We have a very clear restraint on our “means” - it is called love. To bad so few of us practice it.


How can you suggest that Christianity was not designed to govern, when in fact its entire destiny revolves around the idea. The Second Coming of Christ laid out in Revelation has, for nearly two millennia, been purporting to tell us about the ideal earthly government to come, one which is poised to render all previous utopian efforts insignificant.


I’ve read Revelation, Bruce. It describes a world of fear, torture, plague, fire, and human flesh processed through a ‘wine press’ to extract its blood. This is to be “God’s fury accomplished”. . . which is, ironically, followed by the phrase, “Great and wonderful are your works”. . . !!! “It’s all about the love”, you say? The last book reveals that as a lie, and I don’t need to have had a troubled experience with religion in order to view the contents from start to finish as preposterous and offensive. Based on common biblical interpretation, anyone not surrendered to Jesus when he takes office, sword in hand, will be slaughtered, their blood drained into a river that will flow across the earth. He will oversee the annihilation of all who have decided they are not in love with him (the so-called “free gift”), meaning that there will be billions killed almost immediately after he takes power. The animals too, of course. They always get the shaft when God decides he’s had it with us.


How can the Second Coming be looked upon as anything other than a murderous utopian scheme? Any human ruler applying the tactics outlined in Revelation would rightly be deemed a monster. But when God does it, it’s fabulous, wonderful, bliss-inducing; it is the quintessence of love. And unless Jesus plans to render his surviving flock incapable of sin and free will, from that day forward, then the Saved Ones will forever be subject to torture and murder if they ever do fail to love and serve King Jesus.


Yet Christians can’t comprehend how the rest of us (4 billion) consider that an immoral scenario? If Revelation is to be believed, then God is a lunatic, and you are trying to suggest that we would all benefit from surrendering ourselves to that lunacy. Not gonna do it, Bruce. Enjoy your blood-soaked utopian fantasy, but please spare yourself the trouble of dressing it up as ‘love’. Once free of indoctrination, our bullshit sensors come back online.


.

[ Edited: 16 March 2007 02:16 AM by ]
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Posted: 15 March 2007 02:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 244 ]  
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Yet Christians can’t comprehend how the rest of us (4 billion) consider that an immoral scenario?

Why Mia, this is the “glorious appearing” they are all working and waiting for.  As Thomas Aquinas said, the saints will have the best seats of all to watch the carnage as you, I and most of the world receives our just reward from the sword of christ.

They say they really love us though, and wish us well.  Sometimes they even pray for us sinners.  Doesn’t that make you feel all warm and fuzzy inside?  It does me.

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Posted: 15 March 2007 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 245 ]  
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[quote author=“homunculus”]Bruce, are you saying that Christians are to be trusted to run things no more adequately than atheists? (Just trying to define things.)

Politically and legally, yes, that is what I am saying, assuming that when you say “run things” that means civil government.  I’ll vote for you to “run things.”  Just don’t kill me and let me live my faith. Deal?

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Posted: 15 March 2007 04:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 246 ]  
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[quote author=“Mia”]How can you suggest that Christianity was not designed to govern, when in fact its entire destiny revolves around the idea. The Second Coming of Christ laid out in Revelation has, for nearly two millennia, been purporting to tell us about the ideal earthly government to come, one which is poised to render all previous utopian efforts insignificant.

The point I was trying to make, Mia, is that Christianity is not supposed to govern NOW - politically.  It is supposed to do its simple work.  You can be the next President - just let me live my faith.  If you have read Revelation, then you know the ones suffering at the end are evil and immoral.  What is envisioned there is a world shaking its fist at God. Why does everyone want to do that when his offer of salvation is so simple?  The impression I get is that you would not want to live in the presence of the God of the Bible anyway, so if He doesn’t let you into heaven, what’s your complaint?  If people prefer destruction to life, then how is God unjust in giving it to them?  Although I know you will not agree, God destroying unbelievers is actually an act of utmost respect toward them - they have made a decision to reject God, fully knowing the facts about him, and God respects that decision.  He is treating then as fully responsible, competent and intelligent persons, capable of deciding between two clear choices.  The fact of the matter is that many people would rather be destroyed than worship the true God.  From my perspective, that’s crazy.

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Posted: 15 March 2007 05:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 247 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]Why does everyone want to do that when his offer of salvation is so simple?

So simple. My way or the highway. God can go fuçk Himself. He’s omnipotent, after all. And given time enough, and love, he will.

It’s a joke, Bruce. We do not take the story at face value. We use it to aim a bit of fun at the pathetic excuse of a god you seem so to adore. Really, that god is you, and hence, you are the butt of the joke.

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Posted: 15 March 2007 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 248 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]What is envisioned there is a world shaking its fist at God. Why does everyone want to do that when his offer of salvation is so simple?

[...]

The fact of the matter is that many people would rather be destroyed than worship the true God.  From my perspective, that’s crazy.

:shock:

Your horrific sense of parental love and justice is truly stunning, but I’ve witnessed it so many times now that I’m almost  able to read it yet again without my stomach pitching. Almost.

Your pretense at being this mild-mannered “Please, just leave my sweet, altruistic lil’ self to do my good works, on my innocuous little island of faith!” is only a mask for the extortionary tactics you support. The real message is: “Enslave yourself to my master, love him above all else, no matter what he does, or he will make you suffer for eternity. . . which he would only do because he respects you so damn much!”


One cannot be all-loving if one assigns murderous conditions to that love. It can’t be called a “free gift” if you will be killed for declining the gift. Condemning people to eternal suffering is no kind of “utmost respect”, you absolute nutball.

Being disinclined to worship something is not synonymous with shaking one’s fist at it. Failure to be in love with a myth is not synonymous with hate. Do you shake your fist at Zeus? Do you ‘hate’ Zeus?

[quote author=“Bruce”]
The point I was trying to make, Mia, is that Christianity is not supposed to govern NOW - politically. It is supposed to do its simple work.

 

Straight up until the day you begin the slaughtering—right, I totally gotcha.

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Posted: 15 March 2007 05:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 249 ]  
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[quote author=“Mia”][quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]What is envisioned there is a world shaking its fist at God. Why does everyone want to do that when his offer of salvation is so simple?

[...]

The fact of the matter is that many people would rather be destroyed than worship the true God.  From my perspective, that’s crazy.

:shock:

Your horrific sense of parental love and justice is truly stunning, but I’ve witnessed it so many times now that I’m almost  able to read it yet again without my stomach pitching. Almost.

Your pretense at being this mild-mannered “Please, just leave my sweet, altruistic lil’ self to do my good works, on my innocuous little island of faith!” is only a mask for the extortionary tactics you support. The real message is: “Enslave yourself to my master, love him above all else, no matter what he does, or he will make you suffer for eternity. . . which he would only do because he respects you so damn much!”


One cannot be all-loving if one assigns murderous conditions to that love. It can’t be called a “free gift” if you will be killed for declining the gift. Condemning people to eternal suffering is no kind of “utmost respect”, you absolute nutball.

Being disinclined to worship something is not synonymous with shaking one’s fist at it. Failure to be in love with a myth is not synonymous with hate. Do you shake your fist at Zeus? Do you ‘hate’ Zeus?

[quote author=“Bruce”]
The point I was trying to make, Mia, is that Christianity is not supposed to govern NOW - politically. It is supposed to do its simple work.

 

Straight up until the day you begin the slaughtering—right, I totally gotcha.

I’m not going to be doing any slaughtering.  You’ve made your choice, and I respect it.

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Posted: 15 March 2007 05:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 250 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]I’m not going to be doing any slaughtering.  You’ve made your choice, and I respect it.

Nope, you won’t. You’ll let aaeoni handle it for you. Gee, thanks a bunch.

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Posted: 15 March 2007 05:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 251 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]I’m not going to be doing any slaughtering.

Oh, I realize that. It’s like Hampsteadpete said—you just plan on being front and center to get a good view of the killiing.


[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]You’ve made your choice, and I respect it.

If you respect me the way you say God respects me—enough to torture me eternally for declining his “free gift” *snort*—then I’ll pass, thanks.

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Posted: 15 March 2007 06:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 252 ]  
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[quote author=“Mia”][quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]I’m not going to be doing any slaughtering.

Oh, I realize that. It’s like Hampsteadpete said—you just plan on being front and center to get a good view of the killiing.


[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]You’ve made your choice, and I respect it.

If you respect me the way you say God respects me—enough to torture me eternally for declining his “free gift” *snort*—then I’ll pass, thanks.

Mia, the idea is to relate to the person, not to the category that you project onto him/her.  Then the interaction becomes productive.  Use your sense of humor, the certain sign of a fanatic is no sense of humor.

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Posted: 15 March 2007 06:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 253 ]  
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[quote author=“burt”]Mia, the idea is to relate to the person, not to the category that you project onto him/her.  Then the interaction becomes productive.  Use your sense of humor, the certain sign of a fanatic is no sense of humor.

Burt, Bruce has transformed himself into a category. The category is “just leave me to believe in peace”. But he shows up here to mix it up with us anyway. Something is not right. I and others are calling into question the notion of the need for mercy in this case. I have given a lot of Christian apologists the back of my hand verbally, here and abroad, but I have never seen anyone who asked for the whip quite in the way that Bruce is doing it. I’ll oblige him, but I won’t do any scat scene with him. Everyone has his limits.

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Posted: 15 March 2007 06:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 254 ]  
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[quote author=“burt”]Mia, the idea is to relate to the person, not to the category that you project onto him/her.  Then the interaction becomes productive.  Use your sense of humor, the certain sign of a fanatic is no sense of humor.

Did you miss my *snort*, burt? Believe me, I find the hilarity in all this. Perhaps my typed words don’t express that enough.

But relating is difficult when we’re talking about extortion and dire threats, linked to love. I don’t do that to people I love. . . but if I were to, I would expect to be called on the carpet for it, and potentially thrown out on my ear. Bruce keeps repeating this plaintive refrain: “Why oh why will you not accept this free gift of “love-me-or-fry” from my invisible lord?!” . . . without facing the fact that this is not a definition of parental love or gift-giving that any sane person supports.

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Posted: 15 March 2007 06:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 255 ]  
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[quote author=“Salt Creek”][quote author=“burt”]Mia, the idea is to relate to the person, not to the category that you project onto him/her.  Then the interaction becomes productive.  Use your sense of humor, the certain sign of a fanatic is no sense of humor.

Burt, Bruce has transformed himself into a category. The category is “just leave me to believe in peace”. But he shows up here to mix it up with us anyway. Something is not right. I and others are calling into question the notion of the need for mercy in this case. I have given a lot of Christian apologists the back of my hand verbally, here and abroad, but I have never seen anyone who asked for the whip quite in the way that Bruce is doing it. I’ll oblige him, but I won’t do any scat scene with him. Everyone has his limits.

 

For you he has become a category, hence non-human.  For me I’ll still consider him as human, with his own particular baggage.  I’ll wait and see what develops, wearing my teflon raincoat.

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