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Annihilation, Afterlife, Majesty & Immaculate Conception
Posted: 12 March 2007 11:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]  
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Salt Creek: I guess I need to use emoticons to properly convey my attitude.  :D I was just talking to Joad and didn’t mean to be impolite.  :D I assume that everyone here knows that I am a self-deluded Christian who uses theistic jargon.  :D I realize that nobody else buys into that - that’s just the way I talk.  :D By the way, there have been many rational beings (Augustine, Acquinas, Calvin, Luther, etc.) who believed that Jesus was both human and divine.  :D You may not agree with them, and that is understandable - but they had a lot of brain power and knew how to use it. :D

P. S. You are invited to our next church supper, where the food is actually very tasty.  It will put you in a better mood.

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Posted: 12 March 2007 11:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]I was just talking to Joad and didn’t mean to be impolite.

Whatever you post in public is fair game. If you were just talking to Joad, you could send him a PM. Unless, of course, you think I’m a moron.

As far as the many rational (famous) beings who have adopted an idea in favor of the divinity of Jeebus: Well, fifty billion flies cannot be wrong. Being a famous fly is OK by me; it doesn’t change the fact that you are still a fly.

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Posted: 12 March 2007 11:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]  
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Salt Creek: In your world view, aren’t we all flies?  Seriously, I assume that you believe that when you die, you will simply cease to exist, just like a fly. The best cosmological evidence that we have is that in about 15 billion years the universe will reach a state of maximum entropy, and everything will be a lifeless frozen wasteland.  Long before that, everyone posting on this thread will be gone, all of the great opinions that we express will be forgotten, and all of the knowledge that we think we have will have been laughed at by future generations, who themselves will be laughed at by even more future generation.  Then, it all ends.

So, what difference does it make if you think you are following after the right path (science, reason) and I am deluded by religion?  In the final analysis, under your world view, it’s all meaningless and without purpose. Your path is just as much an opiate-induced fantasy as mine is - if you are right.

My world view offers hope, both for the individual and for humankind as a whole. The less intelligent and the more intelligent, the weak and the strong, male and female, black and white - we all have hope - of eternal life.  If my world view is wrong, at least I have hope.

If your world view is right, you are an evolutionary accident - worm food. Why should I listen to your opinion - it’s meaningless.  Of course, I do not think that you are an accident - I think that you are made in the image of God, so I respect you and hope for the best for you.  I think we all have a purpose, a destiny. I just think that your philosophy is an absolute dead end.  Let us eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we reach a maximum state of entropy.  This type of philosophy is not worthy of someone of your obvious intelligence.  Your life means more than this.  You are not a fly.

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Posted: 12 March 2007 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]Skipshot: Thank you for your response. I assume then that one of the primary reasons you have rejected Christianity is because of how other Christians have treated you.  Had you been treated with respect and without condemnation, would that have made any difference, or would you reject any religion regardless of how its adherents acted toward you?  I hope that question is not too hypothetical.

Your fist assumption is correct, which leads to the hypothetical question which I cannot answer, however, I will offer that I have yet to hear a Christian openly respect my disbelief.  There are few conversation stoppers better than the statement, “I am an atheist.”

The primary reason I rejected Christianity is because the concept of God and the afterlife did not make sense to me, but when I found that my rejection of a religion meant complete rejection of me by its believers then my infidelity was strengthened by the willful blindness of its believers.

Everything about my education stressed verification and cross-checking of sources and claims (remember the exhortations, “Show your work” and “Put your name on your paper”?), but when the Bible is exempt from this, then I am left with the academic default of, “I don’t believe it.”  For a better understanding of my position, ask yourself why you don’t believe the writings of Mohammed or Joseph Smith were divinly inspired.

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Posted: 12 March 2007 12:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]  
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Skipshot: I respect your disbelief - it makes perfect sense to me.  Were it not for certain experiences that I have had in my life, I probably would have come to the same conclusion you did eventually.

I will have to confess that prior to reading Sam Harris’, I was probably guilty of pre-judging atheists.  Now, I actually prefer conversing with them more than with many believers. Conversations with other Christians often quickly turn into regurgitations of religious verbage.  Talking with atheists challenges me, so I feel that I am growing from the experience. Thanks for responding to my question.

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Posted: 12 March 2007 12:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]  
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It’s refreshing to hear you have an open mind about this matter.  I prefer understanding more than tolerance, since tolerance leaves the door open to intolerance.

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Posted: 13 March 2007 07:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]Salt Creek: In your world view, aren’t we all flies?  Seriously, I assume that you believe that when you die, you will simply cease to exist, just like a fly. The best cosmological evidence that we have is that in about 15 billion years the universe will reach a state of maximum entropy, and everything will be a lifeless frozen wasteland.  Long before that, everyone posting on this thread will be gone, all of the great opinions that we express will be forgotten, and all of the knowledge that we think we have will have been laughed at by future generations, who themselves will be laughed at by even more future generation.  Then, it all ends.

So, what difference does it make if you think you are following after the right path (science, reason) and I am deluded by religion?  In the final analysis, under your world view, it’s all meaningless and without purpose. Your path is just as much an opiate-induced fantasy as mine is - if you are right.

My world view offers hope, both for the individual and for humankind as a whole. The less intelligent and the more intelligent, the weak and the strong, male and female, black and white - we all have hope - of eternal life.  If my world view is wrong, at least I have hope.

If your world view is right, you are an evolutionary accident - worm food. Why should I listen to your opinion - it’s meaningless.  Of course, I do not think that you are an accident - I think that you are made in the image of God, so I respect you and hope for the best for you.  I think we all have a purpose, a destiny. I just think that your philosophy is an absolute dead end.  Let us eat, drink and be merry, for tomorrow we reach a maximum state of entropy.  This type of philosophy is not worthy of someone of your obvious intelligence.  Your life means more than this.  You are not a fly.


My
world view is that when we die we get to hang out with all our friends in a mansion of unimaginable luxury, eating foie gras and lobster and drinking the finest clarets. Our entertainments will be provided by Mozart, the Beatles, Shakespeare and Bill Hicks. Our physical strength will be as Superman’s and our sexual prowess will be such that 72 virgins an hour will barely suffice. We will be witty, good-looking and endlessly content.
All that is necessary to enjoy this after-life Utopia is to live as an atheist and not fold your shirts at night. Any deviation from these conditions will result in eternal torment etc etc.

Now, Bruce. Tell me your world view is better, in terms of hope offered and ease of operation, than that. And don’t tell me it’s not true because I had a vision that it was. So there.

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Posted: 13 March 2007 08:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]  
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[quote author=“Occam’s Razor”]eating foie gras and lobster and drinking the finest clarets.

My vision too, with minor variations. I consider lobster too rich for my palate, but expect that I will be able to select crabmeat instead. Oh, those poor crustaceans. To what paradise to they get to go? No doubt, one in which plankton suffer.

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Posted: 13 March 2007 09:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]  
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[quote author=“Salt Creek”][quote author=“Occam’s Razor”]eating foie gras and lobster and drinking the finest clarets.

My vision too, with minor variations. I consider lobster too rich for my palate, but expect that I will be able to select crabmeat instead. Oh, those poor crustaceans. To what paradise to they get to go? No doubt, one in which plankton suffer.

Unbeliever! Rejection of the Lobster is apostasy and earns you eternal torment. Sorry, but my vision was quite clear on this.

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Posted: 13 March 2007 01:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]  
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SC & OR: I really think both of you place too small a value on your own lives.  I am beginning to think that low self-esteem is endemic among atheists. You should both hold out for raw oysters.

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Posted: 13 March 2007 01:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]  
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My world view is that when we die we get to hang out with all our friends in a mansion of unimaginable luxury, eating foie gras and lobster and drinking the finest clarets. Our entertainments will be provided by Mozart, the Beatles, Shakespeare and Bill Hicks. Our physical strength will be as Superman’s and our sexual prowess will be such that 72 virgins an hour will barely suffice. We will be witty, good-looking and endlessly content.
All that is necessary to enjoy this after-life Utopia is to live as an atheist and not fold your shirts at night. Any deviation from these conditions will result in eternal torment etc etc.

That is some view of the after life… it seems that you have made up this fantasy to give your self a since of hope after death. How is that different then Christianity? Isn’t their faith built on some sort of hope?

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Posted: 13 March 2007 01:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]  
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If someone were teeter tottering on becoming a Christian or an Atheist, what would each side say to this person to persuade him or her to go one way or another?

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Posted: 13 March 2007 01:29 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]  
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Observant,

Great question.

My response is simple:

Would you rather be the well fed dog who is on his master’s leash, or would you take your chances of starving by being a wolf running free in the woods?

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Posted: 13 March 2007 01:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]  
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Would you rather be the well fed dog who is on his master’s leash, or would you take your chances of starving by being a wolf running free in the woods?

That is a different perspective. I need to ponder this and wait for the “other side” to respond and evaluate the two arguments.

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Posted: 13 March 2007 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]SC & OR: I really think both of you place too small a value on your own lives.  I am beginning to think that low self-esteem is endemic among atheists. You should both hold out for raw oysters.

Why should people view themselves any different from other species of this planet? If there is no God, and everything revolves around logic and reason, then why have hope at all? We all are born. We go through childhood learning how to grow up just like our parents, who spent their entire lives working for the kids who will go through the same cycle. We might make it to retirement in which we will be too old and tired to enjoy what is left of our feeble lives. Then we die and our kids enter the same cycle. Unless a person has done some great deed or made some sort of mark in history, what purpose do we simple people have anyway? What difference do we make in a society of millions of people with the same issues and concerns?

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