Church doctrine reversals because of science.
Posted: 27 February 2007 09:14 AM   [ Ignore ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  4
Joined  2007-02-27

Hi, I go to a Catholic Highschool and am Catholic myself. Don't worry, I am not here to argue with any of you, but actually seek further information. Lately, the religion class staff and I (Along with a few other rational students/friends, although there are very, very, very few of us.) have been arguing over many issues.

I'd just like to start with the issue of science reversing the teachings and doctrine of the Church. I have already cited the popular issue of Galileo and the sun being the center to no avail. Also, the issue of evolution and how the Church is slowly rescinding its claim of intelligent design (very slowly and by no means noticeable) by saying it is "okay" to research and look into evolution.

I was just wondering if anyone has any other specific examples of science directly proving a certain view or teaching of the Church wrong and thus the Church changing its teaching?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 February 2007 09:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1241
Joined  2006-11-05

I was just wondering if anyone has any other specific examples of science directly proving a certain view or teaching of the Church wrong and thus the Church changing its teaching?

Learn as much as you can about everything, you don’t need to limit your opinion to match someone elses. Most of the time, it’s difficult for someone to explain to you exactly why they believe in evolution or exactly why they believe in creation.

It’s a free society, you should be free to learn everything.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 February 2007 10:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  4
Joined  2007-02-27

Yes, I totally agree. I do not limit my education in any topic to the parameters of Catholicism. Quite the opposite, I read constantly and often the subject matter is anti-Catholic teaching. (Such as the End of Faith and Letter to a Christian Nation) I do not accept their “explanations” for many ideas and things in life. I have been trying to explain in length why our Catholic god is not any more reasonable than a Buddhist or Muslim god. No one can see this point of view at my school, arrogance and ignorance runs rampant.

Through the specific examples, I wish to have them question the faith as I have. They view this questioning as heresy and blaspheming. The ignorance being spread through the “Catholicism is the only true religion” (What else can be expected at a Catholic school) spewing is appalling. Despite the Catholic teaching against fundamentalism, many of my fellow students believe the exact letter of the Bible and again I only wish to show them that it cannot stand the test of time.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 February 2007 11:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2818
Joined  2005-04-29

[quote author=“Horn”]Hi, I go to a Catholic Highschool and am Catholic myself. Don’t worry, I am not here to argue with any of you, but actually seek further information. Lately, the religion class staff and I (Along with a few other rational students/friends, although there are very, very, very few of us.) have been arguing over many issues.

I’d just like to start with the issue of science reversing the teachings and doctrine of the Church. I have already cited the popular issue of Galileo and the sun being the center to no avail. Also, the issue of evolution and how the Church is slowly rescinding its claim of intelligent design (very slowly and by no means noticeable) by saying it is “okay” to research and look into evolution.

I was just wondering if anyone has any other specific examples of science directly proving a certain view or teaching of the Church wrong and thus the Church changing its teaching?

Horn, I just now read your opening post, and I hope you visit here:
http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=59675#59675

It’s amazing how inversely similar our requests for information are. Are you a mind reader?

 Signature 

Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
Ludwig Wittgenstein

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 February 2007 12:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  4
Joined  2007-02-27

I read your topic and I have wondered the same thing that you are questioning. Why do we humans believe that some being higher than ourselves must interact with us? I think this feeling that we are God’s people (Although I am not outright denying it, I really can’t explain my position. I don’t believe in one moment, yet another I do.) is an arrogant ploy by humanity to make itself feel better and more important. An argument often heard against evolution is “We are so intelligent/complex/smart/sophisticated/conscious that we can’t have come from a one cell organism.” This statement is glazed with insolent and pompous ideas and it goes hand in hand with the religious thought of a god.

I’d be very interested in any information over why religions started and the notion that there is a god that’s interested in us. My thoughts are religion wouldn’t exist if we weren’t all indoctrinated at the ripe age of a child. But this of course doesn’t explain why a god was conceived of in the first place.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 February 2007 02:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  950
Joined  2006-06-26

[quote author=“Horn”] Why do we humans believe that some being higher than ourselves must interact with us? I think this feeling that we are God’s people (Although I am not outright denying it, I really can’t explain my position. I don’t believe in one moment, yet another I do.) is an arrogant ploy by humanity to make itself feel better and more important. An argument often heard against evolution is “We are so intelligent/complex/smart/sophisticated/conscious that we can’t have come from a one cell organism.” This statement is glazed with insolent and pompous ideas and it goes hand in hand with the religious thought of a god.

I’d be very interested in any information over why religions started and the notion that there is a god that’s interested in us. My thoughts are religion wouldn’t exist if we weren’t all indoctrinated at the ripe age of a child. But this of course doesn’t explain why a god was conceived of in the first place.

I think that from our human, conceited point of view, if you remove the premise that we are the divine creation of a god, that leaves us in the position of being no more than another product of three billion years of evolution like all other llfe on this planet, all be it one who has developed the ability to convince itself otherwise. If we disavow a creator, tens of thousands of years of investment in a myriad of legends and beliefs, millions or even billions of lives were needlessly wasted, and the power of those who purport to speak for those gods, disappears overnight. Those with the power are undeniably loath to allow that to happen.

Seek the truth, question everything.

 Signature 

“We have it recorded in a book called the Bible.”

To be blunt, the Bible records all manner of silly shit.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 February 2007 02:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1377
Joined  2004-12-21

Good questions!  A few days ago, I posted a quote from Cheri Huber, a Zen teacher, who, I think, pretty much nails why we like to “believe,” and how these beliefs effect us.  I offer it as my contribution to your honest searching:

We “believe” as a way of not facing the very uncomfortable (to egocentricity) fact that we don’t know.  Life never repeats itself.  Each split second everything in the universe is different.  Each moment is brand new; it could be anything.  Not having a guarantee about what is coming next, we imagine what will happen (we project the past into the future) and cling to a belief that our imaginings are true.  Then believing is supposed to make us feel more secure, but if we believe something we don’t know to be true, and may suspect is not true, anxiety, not security, is the result.

As a culture we operate out of the assumption that if enough people believe something it must be true.  The process of group assuming and believing seems to work, because when people believe something is true, they experience whatever it is as true.  For instance, if I told a group of people that the individual I was bringing to speak with them was one of the wisest, clearest, most awakened masters living today, they would hear what that individual said as wise, assuming they believed my judgment.  On the other hand, if I informed the group that the person I was bringing to speak with them is a primary example of extreme intelligence masking delusion, they would hear everything that was said through the filter of “this person is deluded.”

Here are a few of the ways we attempt to control the outcome of the next moments in order to make life fit with our beliefs:  Selective perception, tensed muscles, self-hate, superstition, and self-control.  “If I make myself (and those around me) be the way I ‘should’ be, then my life will be the way I believe it should be and I will get what I want.”  In this way we manage to avoid seeing what is so and are able to continue to choose our beliefs over our experience.  “When life doesn’t go the way it should, it’s my fault.  If I were better, smarter, stronger (whatever) this wouldn’t be happening If things aren’t the way they should be, it’s proof that there’s something wrong with me.”

This is a child’s view of life.  It seems secure; it perpetuates suffering!

 Signature 

http://powerlessnolonger.com

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 February 2007 02:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1241
Joined  2006-11-05

Why do we humans believe that some being higher than ourselves must interact with us?

We obviously are not alone in the universe (or this planet). You can feel God if you understand God. It would prove to be difficult to understand anything that is above and beyond us, humans are not as intelligent as we think we are.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 February 2007 02:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  80
Joined  2006-12-13

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]

Why do we humans believe that some being higher than ourselves must interact with us?

We obviously are not alone in the universe (or this planet). You can feel God if you understand God. It would prove to be difficult to understand anything that is above and beyond us, humans are not as intelligent as we think we are.

I’m desperately trying to parse this statement. We’re just crummy humans so it’s difficult for us to understand a God that is above and beyond us. I can accept this, but all I’m left with is a God I cannot understand.

Now, “you can feel God if you understand God” becomes easier for me to figure out. The reason I don’t feel the presence of God is because I do not understand the nature of God.

Nevertheless, I’m perplexed about what to do with the results.

Bad_Conduct, is your purpose to tell us how great God is? If so, why should we take your word for it, since you are presumably a crummy human not able to figure out very much at all.

Or is your purpose to tell us just how crummy human beings are? If so, relative to what?

I’ve read a lot of what you have written, and I confess, it does not make much sense to me at this point. Sorry for being so dense.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 February 2007 03:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  4
Joined  2007-02-27

[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]

Why do we humans believe that some being higher than ourselves must interact with us?

We obviously are not alone in the universe (or this planet). You can feel God if you understand God. It would prove to be difficult to understand anything that is above and beyond us, humans are not as intelligent as we think we are.

I completely agree with you and that’s the exact point I am getting at. We should not, as a collective humanity, make ridiculous claims about God. In turn, humans feel the need to take their beliefs and impose them upon the masses. There should not be this competition among faiths to prove theirs being the true religion. I look at it from the stand point of: Hey you are a Muslim. Great, I am glad that you have found happiness through that venue. Hey you are a Christian. Great again, I am glad you have found happiness through that venue. Neither one of you should seek to disprove the other, both claims are as ridiculous as the guy who believes Zeus lives on top of Mt. Olympus. So we should all get down from our high horses, and realize that faith and religion are unreasonable concepts that won’t be proved or disproved until our deaths.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 February 2007 03:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  102
Joined  2007-02-13

Horn wrote:

Neither one of you should seek to disprove the other…

Submit? Never!

:wink:

Profile
 
 
Posted: 27 February 2007 04:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
Administrator
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  480
Joined  2006-12-16

Nothing in there about ‘submit’.
Horn understands that no one can make you believe anything.
The efforts to indoctrinate young children are just as likely to backfire, in any modern culture.
Getting down off our ideological high horses is the most subversive act of all, because hot air on one side just heats up the air on the other side.
If we treat our ideas as theories rather than warhorses, we can have both peace and progress toward what is most true.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 March 2007 07:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  2
Joined  2006-04-26

Horn,

An excellent reference for your inquiry is the classic “A History of the Warfare of Science With Theology in Christendom”  written in 1896 by Andrew White.  White details the births of all the sciences and how the Church fought to discredit, ban or kill(literally) the new ideas.

Profile
 
 
   
 
 
RSS 2.0     Atom Feed