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Southern Baptist leader admits people are born gay…
Posted: 18 March 2007 06:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]
Therefore, if engaging in a homosexual act with another person harms that person by causing that person guilt, shame, or increased ostracism from mainstream society due to social stigma, it is wrong (harm comes in many flavors).

Bruce, you try to come across as a gentle and open-minded guy, but your wording belies you.  The “guilt, shame, or increased ostracism” a gay person may experience is a result of an undereducated, uninformed, and a religiously arrogant homophobic population. The gay person should not abstain from “genital expression” because or perceived or real attitudes of others. He should address his guilt and shame therapeutically (as many do) and work himself out of it.  Ostracism, depending on the type, needs to be addressed differently - either with education or in the court. You’re still imposing your biblical morality despite yourself.

Same goes for heterosexual adultery or promiscuity. (This is apart from any religious basis for morality, which I understand is a non-starter here).

No. Again, this isn’t as apart from religiously-imposed morality as you’d like us to think. Who defines promiscuity? Do you get to judge people if they have more sex than you, if they have a stronger libido? If a person, gay or straight, has more than the typical amount of sex (whatever that is), and word gets out at the office, where people then treat that person poorly, you’re saying that person should stop, and that the office-mates should not be held accountable for their bad behavior.  What a crock of b.s.  As for adultery, that could be seen as a category error. Cheating is a whole nother bag.

Bad Conduct - I agree that all actions are the results of choices.  I disagree that all attitudes and basic psychological makeup are the results of choices. By the time we start making real choices, our basic personalities are pretty much set. If you and I are wired to like members of the opposite sex, why is it difficult to believe that some people could be wired to like members of the same sex?  Even if you look at that as being a flaw, why couldn’t it happen?

This is where you seem to come down the most on the side of rationality, though still with a hint of “love the sinner, hate the sin.” Where do you stand, Bruce, in your attitude toward straight versus gay sex?  You admit that gay people are wired to like members of the same sex, exactly like straight people, but do you draw a line with the act of sex itself?  Your hard-wiring is for straight sex (I think). Your desire for awesome hetero sex is there. Imagine being told that, despite your biological need for sex, it is an immoral act unless you’re procreating.  Oh, wait, that is what you’re told.  Yay, scripture!

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Posted: 18 March 2007 08:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]  
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[quote author=“Salt Creek”][quote author=“Keytard”]If I hated Jews would it be their fault? Their problem?

Even if there is something that causes people to be predisposed to it from birth, they are a minority.

And I’m begining to gather that you’re simply not big on minorities.

I think in Roger’s case it is not in the nature of taking a dump on minorities. I think he has very real issues with his own sexual identity. I’m not saying he’s a repressed bi or homosexual, but simply that he has no means to articulate what his sexuality is or where it comes from.


Thats a fair criticism. I suppose if I had said Irish instead that would have worked. The point that I was trying to make is that if I hate someone for the way they were born, thats my problem, not theirs. I was born Irish. I really didn’t have any choice. HappyHeathan was born gay, he also didn’t have any choice. I think that being uncomfortable around him because he’s guy is akin to being uncomfortable around me because I’m Irish.


On the issue of expressing one’s sexuality; I think that whatever conscenting adults want to do on their own time, in their own homes is fine.

There are things that a gay man would do in his bedroom, that I’m simply not into. And there are things that I do in the bedroom that he simply would not be into. So long as we are doing these things with conscenting adults, who cares?

Pre-marital sex and gay sex are invented crimes. I don’t think I’ll ever get married. The idea of celebrating my love in a standardized ceremony just doesn’t seem like it would do the feelings justice. Does that mean its immoral for me to have sex?

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Posted: 18 March 2007 08:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]Anticipating such a response, here is my answer. “Genital expression” is appropriate when it does not harm people.  Therefore, if engaging in a homosexual act with another person harms that person by causing that person guilt, shame, or increased ostracism from mainstream society due to social stigma, it is wrong (harm comes in many flavors).  Same goes for heterosexual adultery or promiscuity. (This is apart from any religious basis for morality, which I understand is a non-starter here).

Further commentary on this, understanding that homosexuality is hard-wired and that what happens between two consenting adults causes no harm to anybody.

Bruce was still saying that expressions of selfhood should be stifled if one feels hurt or is somehow attacked by an ignorant majority.

An analogy could be puritan-era New England women with a proclivity for higher education, being supressed by an ignorant majority who feel that a woman’s place is not in higher learning. When a woman felt ostracized and ashamed of her own intelligence due to the trend of the day, puritan-era Bruce would have her shut off her mind and behave like a woman should!

But women (mostly, in American anyway) overcame this. Even though the bible says they shouldn’t have.

In a sense, biological expressions or our sexuality keeps us sane and functional, gay or straight.

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Posted: 18 March 2007 08:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]  
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After stepping back and just reading for a bit, I’m starting to get a feel for what people here are thinking about all of this.

Some are demanding that some facts be brought out showing that homosexuality is solely a product of sexual molestation.  While its well known that it attributes to it, it cannot be proven to be 0 the cause of it. Even if it actually was, that still could not be proved. So that’s moot.

Then there is the issue of why homosexuality is seen as bad or not accepted by society.  Again, I personally don’t have a problem with what people do behind closed doors…as long as its legal. (Actually, I don’t agree with the sodomy laws in some states because I have been known to sodomize women myself on occassion so it would be hypocritcal to say that others couldn’t do it, regardless of gender). Back to my point, “I” am not society.  I don’t like to be around homosexuals that much but I don’t hate them.  Our society at large feels the same way, some people are even more intolerant than myself. But I can’t control how everyone else feels or acts. That is between homosexuals and their society, not with me.

Someone talked about a hetero converting to homosexual later in life. Then Bad_Conduct talked about someone being a hetero virgin by no choice of their own.  I alluded to the same thing when I stated that some gays are so attrocious that they could never be in hetero relationships anyway and therefore try same sex partners simply as a last measure to acquire a mate. That is not fun to say, but it IS true in some cases, sadly enough.

I guess my same points still stand and I think it is important that they be acknowledged as valid points and not the ramblings of bigot.  I know that a common tactic is to write of someone’s argument as a racist, misogynistic, or biased attack simply because it is offensive.  But offensive comments can often be rooted in truth.

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Posted: 18 March 2007 08:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]  
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Next question: I know a woman who has been married six times to five men (she married one lucky guy twice). Then, at about the age of 45, she switched teams, and is now in a lesbian relationship.

It’s called “bisexuality”.  I know, having made such a so-called “switch” back and forth. 

If the US had a religious heritage that was predominantly Buddhist or Hindu or pagan, do you think anti-gay attitudes would be less prevalent?

If the US were founded and populated by ancient Greco-Roman style pagans, I suspect the anti-gay attitudes would be non-existent.  We probably wouldn’t even have a word for “gay”.  They didn’t. 

The evidence suggests otherwise.

No.  It doesn’t.

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Posted: 18 March 2007 08:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]  
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I want to know what these ‘homosexual acts’ are that people refer to so much.

Aren’t they just, by and large, the same sexual acts that heterosexual people do?

One of my very least favourite things about the Judeo-Christian religion is its horribly repressed views on human sexuality.

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Posted: 18 March 2007 09:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]  
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[quote author=“rogerflat”]
Back to my point, “I” am not society.  I don’t like to be around homosexuals that much but I don’t hate them.  Our society at large feels the same way….

You would like to believe that “society at large” is in the same boat as you, that they don’t like to be around gay people.  This is no longer true of society at large, but it is true of you.  Go to many parts of Europe and “society at large” has no problem at all. This is called progress. It’s happening in America, too.  Unfortunately, it takes things like murder and suicide of gay people to open the eyes of the ignorant masses.

I alluded to the same thing when I stated that some gays are so attrocious that they could never be in hetero relationships anyway and therefore try same sex partners simply as a last measure to acquire a mate. That is not fun to say, but it IS true in some cases, sadly enough.

You couch your ignorance and bigotry in apologetic b.s. “Atrocious”? Only atrocity here is your own absolute stupidity. Yes, I’m sure you truly found saying that painful.rolleyes And of course it makes no sense at all. You really think that because you find someone’s physical appearance “atrocious” that everyone else does, too. I wonder what you look like, Roger.

I guess my same points still stand and I think it is important that they be acknowledged as valid points and not the ramblings of bigot.  I know that a common tactic is to write of someone’s argument as a racist, misogynistic, or biased attack simply because it is offensive.  But offensive comments can often be rooted in truth.

“Offensive comments can be rooted in truth.” Is this your way of rationalizing your bigotry? The only truth to your offensive comments is that you’re an offensive person. Your arguments are totally without substance, and they are indeed the ramblings or a bigot.

You very much want there to be some truth to what you say, but there is none. Zilch.

You simply feel you’re better than some people, but you don’t know why. If you ever truly figure out why (this is not my job), you’ll realize how stupid you sound.

I should not have removed you from my ignore list, as your comments are such an insult to humanity in general.  But it’s like stopping the car on the highway to look at the bodies strewn around the car wreck: it’s fascinating in the most repulsive way.

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Posted: 18 March 2007 11:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]  
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Indulge me further, please.

First, I suggest a good therapist to help you uncover what’s really beneath your dichotimizing, reductionist thinking.

But I also encourage you to explore on your own. When you feel repulsed by a gay person, stop and examine exactly what it is that’s turning you off, but don’t stop there.  Ask yourself why.

In high school, girls were held up as the prize I should should have been chasing, even though I wasn’t attracted to them. Also, the girls got the guys that I did want.  Further, high school teenagers of both genders acting out adolescent insecurities can be plain mean. But it was primarilly the girls’ meanness that I noticed, they doing double duty as both theives and supposed objects of desire. So, what happened?  My high school experience led me to be a misogynist. I still have misogynist tendencies, but they’re irrational, and when they occur, I stop them in their tracks. For instance a group of young undergrad women laughing together still recalls mean-spirited high school girls, and my reaction is to take their laughter as a personal attack, even if I don’t know them! Lots of group female laughter sounds mocking to me, and it’s too easy for me to think, “I really just don’t like being around women.” (sound familiar?). But when I see I’m not the center of the universe, that they don’t even know I’m there, that their laughter is not “evil” laughter, and that there’s just a good a chance that they’re good people as not, I’m free to move on.  And I’m able to have friends of both genders and of all orientations (there is a spectrum, by the way, regardless of whether Kinsey’s study was biased).

If I did not question myself at every turn, I’d maintain that women are generally mean-spirited, I’d stay away from them, and I wouldn’t have the benefit of having them as friends.

Have that honest conversation with yourself (or your therapist), and stop rationalizing a position whose dismantling could be the greatest thing that ever happened to you.

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Posted: 18 March 2007 12:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]  
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[quote author=“NobleSavage”]If the US were founded and populated by ancient Greco-Roman style pagans, I suspect the anti-gay attitudes would be non-existent.

I described why adult man-on-man sex was stigmatized in at least some parts of Greek culture: beliefs concerning the ideal of masculinity, and beliefs that man-on-man sex violates those ideals. Do you have some reason to suspect that this would have changed in your hypothetical scenario?

Are we assuming that this hypothetical modern Greco-Roman culture would not have absorbed those Aristotelian ideas which (moreso than anything found in scripture) underlies the western tendency to infer from “X is unnatural” to “X is immoral”?

If the Abrahamic religions really do have a special role to play in anti-gay attitudes around the world, why is it that the trend to legally recognize gay marriage has so far been limited to traditionally Christian western countries? Gay activists in other countries have made a fuss about recognizing gay marriage. So why doesn’t, say, the predominantly Buddhist culture in Thailand just say, “Sure, makes no difference to us, write the law and we’ll sign it”? Why was homosexuality officially considered a mental disorder in Thailand until 2002? Why is homosexuality so often stigmatized in Japan? Why is it still criminalized in India? Why did the Dalai Lama declare homosexuality a form of sexual misconduct?

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Posted: 18 March 2007 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]  
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[quote author=“HappyHeathen”] Bruce, you try to come across as a gentle and open-minded guy, but your wording belies you.  The “guilt, shame, or increased ostracism” a gay person may experience is a result of an undereducated, uninformed, and a religiously arrogant homophobic population. The gay person should not abstain from “genital expression” because or perceived or real attitudes of others. He should address his guilt and shame therapeutically (as many do) and work himself out of it.  Ostracism, depending on the type, needs to be addressed differently - either with education or in the court. You’re still imposing your biblical morality despite yourself.

You know, HH, after considering your post, I agree with you. I was attempting to find a non-biblical basis for labeling homosexual acts immoral, since they are repugnant to me personally (perhaps a little like your misogynist tendencies). I’ve decided I can’t do it apart from scriptural principles.  I do object to the word “homophobic”, however, which has become as much of a label as as any other prejudicial phrase and is regularly misused.  But, that’s the way it is, so I guess I’ll get used to it.

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Posted: 18 March 2007 02:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]  
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[quote author=“Climacus”]
If the Abrahamic religions really do have a special role to play in anti-gay attitudes around the world, why is it that the trend to legally recognize gay marriage has so far been limited to traditionally Christian western countries? Gay activists in other countries have made a fuss about recognizing gay marriage. So why doesn’t, say, the predominantly Buddhist culture in Thailand just say, “Sure, makes no difference to us, write the law and we’ll sign it”? Why was homosexuality officially considered a mental disorder in Thailand until 2002? Why is homosexuality so often stigmatized in Japan? Why is it still criminalized in India? Why did the Dalai Lama declare homosexuality a form of sexual misconduct?

Why? Because they have not yet figured out that there is nothing deviant, no sin, no immorality, and no harm. They have not yet learned what Canada, Belgium, The Netherlands, South Africa and Spain have learned.

It’ll just take some time.

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Posted: 18 March 2007 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]
You know, HH, after considering your post, I agree with you. I was attempting to find a non-biblical basis for labeling homosexual acts immoral, since they are repugnant to me personally (perhaps a little like your misogynist tendencies).

Thank you for admitting that. You know, if I think about performing heterosexual “acts” I’m pretty repulsed, too. So, guess what?  I don’t think about them. How often do you think about gay sex? And I know that my leftover misogyny is irrational, and it never lingers for more than a minute, which seems very unlike your (or perhaps, better, Roger’s)continued negative reaction to homosexuals.

I’ve decided I can’t do it apart from scriptural principles.

This saddens and frustrates me.

I do object to the word “homophobic”, however, which has become as much of a label as as any other prejudicial phrase and is regularly misused.  But, that’s the way it is, so I guess I’ll get used to it.

Well, choose whatever word describes your negative feelings toward gay people (translated into Greek or Latin) if it makes you feel better about yourself.

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Posted: 18 March 2007 03:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]  
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[quote author=“HappyHeathen”] Thank you for admitting that. You know, if I think about performing heterosexual “acts” I’m pretty repulsed, too. So, guess what?  I don’t think about them. How often do you think about gay sex? And I know that my leftover misogyny is irrational, and it never lingers for more than a minute, which seems very unlike your (or perhaps, better, Roger’s)continued negative reaction to homosexuals.

The only time I think about it is when the subject comes up in a discussion or on TV, etc.  But it is discussed so much in the media that it is difficult not to consider it. One of the main reasons I don’t like the word “homophobic” is that it implies that I am afraid of or revulsed by a homosexual as a person, which is not the case. I have no negative reaction toward you as a person at all. I’ve learned from you and probably will continue to do so.  The negative reaction is to the thought of homosexual sex, which apparently you also feel toward heterosexual sex. So, you know what I mean. Do you consider yourself “heterophobic”?

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Posted: 18 March 2007 03:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]  
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I described why adult man-on-man sex was stigmatized in at least some parts of Greek culture

Yes, you did describe it.  It doesn’t matter because you’re completely wrong.  I have no idea where you’re getting your information on the ancient Greek world but it flies in the face of every bit of information I’ve ever read or any historian I’ve ever heard speak on the topic.  Ancient Greece did not have any stigma against man/man love or see it as unmanly, evidenced in how Hercules and Zeus took interest in male lovers. 

If you click on this link and scroll down, you’ll read what one historian had to say on the topic:
 

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Posted: 18 March 2007 03:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]  
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[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”] The negative reaction is to the thought of homosexual sex, which apparently you also feel toward heterosexual sex. So, you know what I mean. Do you consider yourself “heterophobic”?

Not at all.  1….2….3…...some of my best friends are heterosexual!

It seems like so much of discussion today is focused not on gay sex, but simply on their equal right to marry and be recognized under the law as a couple in order to receive their piece of the American dream. I don’t really here much about sex.  So….what channel are you watching?

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