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Southern Baptist leader admits people are born gay…
Posted: 18 March 2007 04:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 91 ]  
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[quote author=“NobleSavage”]Yes, you did describe it.  It doesn’t matter because you’re completely wrong.  I have no idea where you’re getting your information on the ancient Greek world but it flies in the face of every bit of information I’ve ever read or any historian I’ve ever heard speak on the topic.

Where I’m getting my information from is original Greek documents, as well as the conclusions of standard, mainstream historical scholarship.

Sometimes people who’ve studied this topic, even professional scholars (particularly in more popular media) tend to overexaggerate the acceptance of homosexual sex in ancient Greece, probably because it’s rhetorically useful to do so for political purposes. But the standard, mainstream historical view of the attitudes towards homosexuality in ancient Greece says pretty much what I’ve said: In any sex act, the penetrator has the dominant, superior role, and the penetrated has the submissive, inferior role. This was tolerated well enough if it the penetrated one actually occupied an inferior role and thus was supposed to be submissive (i.e. was a woman, a boy, or someone with similarly inferior status), but not if the penetrated was a citizen, and thus a man with full social status. Even pederasty (where the difference in social status matches up) was governed by social taboos.

To say there were no taboos or stigma regarding homosexual sex at all anywhere in Greek culture is just silly.

So, OK, maybe you think I’m lying. In which case, see the wiki entry. Not that wiki is always reliable, but in this case the relevant bits are drawn from the Oxford Classical Dictionary, which is an authoritative mainstream source if anything is. If you think both me and the wiki entry are lying, then check the entry on homosexuality in the nearest copy of the OCD and see for yourself.

Ancient Greece did not have any stigma against man/man love or see it as unmanly, evidenced in how Hercules and Zeus took interest in male lovers.

Views differed in different parts of Greece culture. But in the mainstream Athenian view of things, there wouldn’t necessarily be any stigma attached to Hercules and Zeus. According to a certain way of looking at things, it’s even to their credit - what could be manlier than dominating and feminizing another man? But for the men they penetrate, it’s a different matter. Do you know of any record of Zeus or Herakles wanting to be penetrated by another man?

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Posted: 18 March 2007 05:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 92 ]  
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[quote author=“rogerflat”]After stepping back and just reading for a bit, I’m starting to get a feel for what people here are thinking about all of this.

Some are demanding that some facts be brought out showing that homosexuality is solely a product of sexual molestation.  While its well known that it attributes to it, it cannot be proven to be 0 the cause of it. Even if it actually was, that still could not be proved. So that’s moot.

Then there is the issue of why homosexuality is seen as bad or not accepted by society.  Again, I personally don’t have a problem with what people do behind closed doors…as long as its legal. (Actually, I don’t agree with the sodomy laws in some states because I have been known to sodomize women myself on occassion so it would be hypocritcal to say that others couldn’t do it, regardless of gender). Back to my point, “I” am not society.  I don’t like to be around homosexuals that much but I don’t hate them.  Our society at large feels the same way, some people are even more intolerant than myself. But I can’t control how everyone else feels or acts. That is between homosexuals and their society, not with me.

Someone talked about a hetero converting to homosexual later in life. Then Bad_Conduct talked about someone being a hetero virgin by no choice of their own.  I alluded to the same thing when I stated that some gays are so attrocious that they could never be in hetero relationships anyway and therefore try same sex partners simply as a last measure to acquire a mate. That is not fun to say, but it IS true in some cases, sadly enough.

I guess my same points still stand and I think it is important that they be acknowledged as valid points and not the ramblings of bigot.  I know that a common tactic is to write of someone’s argument as a racist, misogynistic, or biased attack simply because it is offensive.  But offensive comments can often be rooted in truth.


This is all nonsense. Just post links to the evidence that you keep talking about. Of course I don’t expect you to prove that homosexuality is 100% caused by child molestation. Show me 40% or better, and I’ll be quite impressed.

Also show me that its a choice. Post studies, scholarly articles, things of that nature. No more of your “I hate gays, and yet I’m not a bigot” nonsense.

I’m not sure that anybody cares how you justify your distaine for homosexuals. Have your next post contain the facts and figures that you keep referring to.

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Posted: 18 March 2007 06:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 93 ]  
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Of course I’m not going to be able to show polls on how many gays were molested.  Who is actually going to go around to all gays and say “Were you molested sexually? And please be honest.” That data doesn’t exist.

All I can do is go off of observation and personal experience. Tonight I went with my girlfriend to her lesbian friends house for dinner (ironic, I know).  They have some sort of wierd family arrangement and from what I gather it is a fifth grader and a high school senior who live with them.  Now think about this, their kids have no choice but to live in that household! If mommy decides to be gay (which she obviously did because these kids are from her first hetero marriage,) then they have to live with mommy and mommy number two. Whatever feelings they have about it or however they are treated by their schoolmates over it is irrelevant.  They are forced into that situation.

At dinner mommy number two actually said to the fifth grader “Your mom is gay” in a sort of joking manner that was in the context of the conversation. So it was apparent that he knew exactly what was going on and what it means to be gay. I am much more tolerant of lesbians and the one woman doesn’t even seem gay, so it didn’t really bother me to be there aside from being the only guy around three women.

Not that big of deal either way aside from the fact that it is a real life example of a person choosing to be gay, forcing their family members to deal with it,  and validating all the things I’ve already said about all this.

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Posted: 18 March 2007 07:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 94 ]  
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[quote author=“rogerflat”]Of course I’m not going to be able to show polls on how many gays were molested.  Who is actually going to go around to all gays and say “Were you molested sexually? And please be honest.” That data doesn’t exist.

All I can do is go off of observation and personal experience. Tonight I went with my girlfriend to her lesbian friends house for dinner (ironic, I know).  They have some sort of wierd family arrangement and from what I gather it is a fifth grader and a high school senior who live with them.  Now think about this, their kids have no choice but to live in that household! If mommy decides to be gay (which she obviously did because these kids are from her first hetero marriage,) then they have to live with mommy and mommy number two. Whatever feelings they have about it or however they are treated by their schoolmates over it is irrelevant.  They are forced into that situation.

At dinner mommy number two actually said to the fifth grader “Your mom is gay” in a sort of joking manner that was in the context of the conversation. So it was apparent that he knew exactly what was going on and what it means to be gay. I am much more tolerant of lesbians and the one woman doesn’t even seem gay, so it didn’t really bother me to be there aside from being the only guy around three women.

Not that big of deal either way aside from the fact that it is a real life example of a person choosing to be gay, forcing their family members to deal with it,  and validating all the things I’ve already said about all this.

Or possibly that she was actually a lesbian and had been ‘living a lie’ (hate that phrase but you know what I mean) by getting married?  Lot of gay people try heterosexual relationships - and who can blame them when there’s people like yourself making them feel like shit? Or perhaps she wanted children and had a heterosexual relationship to get some? People do shitty, messed-up things - gay people included.
Oh, I particularly liked the bit about how you almost couldn’t tell ‘the gay’ from ‘normal’. Best be on your guard - you never know where these perverts are lurking.

When you’re in a hole, stop digging, Roger.

[ Edited: 19 March 2007 03:00 AM by ]
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Posted: 18 March 2007 07:23 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 95 ]  
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rogerflat, you seem to be convinced that people are either made gay by molestation or they choose to be gay for some other (unclear) reasons.  What this seems to imply is that you too could have chosen to be gay, if you had been molested or had come up with some provocative reason then you might have chosen the gay life?  Of course your aversion to all things gay is some kind of psychological reinforcement that you give yourself to maintain that you made the right choice.  In this one bit of your character you seem to be a true oddball.

Bob

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Posted: 19 March 2007 02:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 96 ]  
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[quote author=“rogerflat”]. . .
Someone talked about a hetero converting to homosexual later in life. Then Bad_Conduct talked about someone being a hetero virgin by no choice of their own.  I alluded to the same thing when I stated that some gays are so attrocious that they could never be in hetero relationships anyway and therefore try same sex partners simply as a last measure to acquire a mate. That is not fun to say, but it IS true in some cases, sadly enough.

I guess my same points still stand and I think it is important that they be acknowledged as valid points and not the ramblings of bigot. . . .

What century did you crawl out of, rogerflat? Coming from someone who I’d respected, the above boldfaced sentence is the most amazingly stupid thing I’ve seen on this forum so far.

Go ahead and respond if you like, but it won’t appear on my screen.

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Posted: 19 March 2007 04:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 97 ]  
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some gays are so attrocious that they could never be in hetero relationships anyway and therefore try same sex partners simply as a last measure to acquire a mate.

To make clear the above statement, it is not about gays necessarily.  There are obviously revolting people in all walks of life, whether it be hetero or homo-sexual. My point is that this is yet another reason why someone might become gay or choose that path in life to walk down.

Case in point. Two lesbians I work with are, well there’s no other way to put it, extra ugly.I can’t even imagine an obese lonely wretched man wanting to be with either of them if presented the chance. Hell, most other lesbians would recoil if propositioned by either of them as well. However, they managed to find each other. And I’m not thinking it was “love at first sight” either. The stark reality is that people lower their standards to find mates, and in this case, transcend their own sexuality gender lines.

And to further reinforce my points…We all know homosexuality is common in prison.  Am I to assume all of these prisoners were born gay? Of course not!!! Desperation and sexual frustration compel them to make the choice to “turn gay” or exhibit gay sexual behavior at least. This is yet another reason, and another example, of gayness NOT being an inate behavior.

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Posted: 19 March 2007 04:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 98 ]  
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[quote author=“rogerflat”]...That data doesn’t exist.

All I can do is go off of observation and personal experience….Not that big of deal either way aside from the fact that it is a real life example of a person choosing to be gay, forcing their family members to deal with it,  and validating all the things I’ve already said about all this.

The data doesn’t exist, so then what you’ve made this up? Or are you a therapist with extensive experience treating victims of molestation?

And how do you know that the mother is straight? Lots of gay people end up getting married because they get fucked up ideas, from people like you, that sexuality is a choice.

Again though, if the kids suffer because their schoolmates suffer from your ignorance, thats really the fault of the schoolmates not the kids, and certainly not the mother’s fault.

If you can’t handle how conscenting find love, then you are the one with the problem, not them.

And unless you’re going to post hard data justifying your belief that homosexuality is either a choice, or the by product of child molestation, don’t bother posting.

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Posted: 19 March 2007 05:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 99 ]  
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[quote author=“rogerflat”]To make clear the above statement, it is not about gays necessarily.  There are obviously revolting people in all walks of life, whether it be hetero or homo-sexual. My point is that this is yet another reason why someone might become gay or choose that path in life to walk down.

So you are the one beholder, defining beauty for the rest of us? That must be so exhausting for you!  Tell me how it can be that I know so many couples (gay and straight) where I find one attractive but not the other.

Case in point. Two lesbians I work with are, well there’s no other way to put it, extra ugly.I can’t even imagine an obese lonely wretched man wanting to be with either of them if presented the chance. Hell, most other lesbians would recoil if propositioned by either of them as well. However, they managed to find each other. And I’m not thinking it was “love at first sight” either. The stark reality is that people lower their standards to find mates, and in this case, transcend their own sexuality gender lines.

It’s unsettling how you put forth these arguments as if you actually know something true. Everything in the above paragraph is misinformed by your severly limited understanding. From where you stand, these two women must be miserable because you’re not attracted to them. Chances are they’re probably happier together than could ever know, and have better sex than you’ll ever have. Why don’t you ask them about their relationship, or are they too ugly to even approach?

And to further reinforce my points…We all know homosexuality is common in prison.  Am I to assum9e all of these prisoners were born gay? Of course not!!! Desperation and sexual frustration compel them to make the choice to “turn gay” or exhibit gay sexual behavior at least. This is yet another reason, and another example, of gayness NOT being an inate behavior.

Prison proves that straight men can have gay sex. It has nothing to do with “making a choice to be gay.” Either prisoners are already gay or bisexual and it works out for them that way, or they’re raping each other as a power play.

Honestly, dude, go back to school. Did you even complete 6th grade?

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Posted: 19 March 2007 06:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 100 ]  
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[quote author=“HappyHeathen”] So….what channel are you watching?

Touche’.

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Posted: 19 March 2007 07:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 101 ]  
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Don’t think I’ll be asking those lesbians questions about their romantic life at work. Not really appropriate. But its kind of one of those “read between the lines” deals. It’s not hard to figure out whats going on there. I don’t think either of them had many options in life, romantically speaking.  So I hope they have the best sex ever. They may be the only ones they’ll ever do it with, so it had better be good.

My ex had a gay friend. She was really into having a gay friend because I guess girls think that its cool to talk with guys about boys.  Its demented if you ask me. This guy was a real dirt bag too.  Disgusting in all ways a person can be disgusting. I remember his “boyfriend” was a little panty waste of a human being and was submissive to this grotesque douchebag. It was so pathetic.

I remember thinking “This is what being gay is like huh? I’ll pass.”

[ Edited: 19 March 2007 08:01 AM by ]
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Posted: 19 March 2007 07:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 102 ]  
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[quote author=“rogerflat”]Don’t think I’ll be asking those lesbians questions about their romantic life at work. Not really appropriate. But its kind of one of those “read between the lines” deals. It’s not hard to figure out whats going on there. I don’t think either of them had many options in life, romantically speaking.  So I hope they have the best sex ever. They may be the only ones they’ll ever do it with, so it had better be good.

My ex had a gay friend. She was really into having a gay friend because I guess girls think that its cool to talk with guys about boys.  Its demented if you ask me. This guy was a real dirt bag too.  Disgusting in all ways a person can be disgusting. I remember his “boyfriend” was a little painty waste of a human being and was submissive to this grotesque douchebag. It was so pathetic.

I remember thinking “This is what being gay is like huh? I’ll pass.”

You’ve passed on lots of things, Roger, all to your detriment.

It’s clear at this point that you enjoy your perspective too much to change, and you’re posting simply to incite dissent. So why don’t you please shut up already? You’re not worth the cyberspace you fill.

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Posted: 19 March 2007 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 103 ]  
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I remember thinking “This is what being gay is like huh? I’ll pass.”

So obviously you have considered it then? 

At least, such a statement indicates that your subconscious is trying to bring it up and you need to formulate a good reason not to go there. 

It’s not easy dealing with that “other side of you” when you’re a repressed bisexual.  Believe me, I know.  It took me several months to work through the misplaced feelings of shame. 

If it helps, Roger, know that I understand what you’re going through.  It’s not easy but if you’re willing to take a hard look at the source of your conflicted feelings honestly and question a lot of the crap that society has imposed upon you, you may come to see things in a new light. 

Some might say the process is not unlike breaking away from Christian indoctrination.

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Posted: 19 March 2007 08:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 104 ]  
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So obviously you have considered it then?

In relation to my post, I was being facetious. However, I think most of us, regardless of gender, have contemplated homosexual thoughts.  Nothing new there…no new revalation to demystify my subdued psychological feelings about being gay. So saying I want to be gay which is why I don’t like gays still does not apply to me. Sorry.

Typical though, trying to turn it back on me rather than actually accepting it for what it is.

And what is this I hear about being “educated” about homosexuality.  As if it were some kind of advanced calculus that requires years of studying to comprehend.

I think America as a whole has done its best to place homosexuality where it belongs. The don’t ask don’t tell is a good policy. But in addition, it should be brushed under the rug and certainly not flaunted. True, they get their parades and marches, but so do the KKK. That’s freedom of speech protecting our constitutional rights.  But that is the limit as to what they should have.

My only fear about it is that it becomes too widely accepted and encourages and promotes kids to become gay.

So far I’ve got virtually nobody in agreement of the valid points I’ve brought up and instead, basically just insults.

It’s actually reminiscent of the athiest vs. theist debate, although this is admittidly more of a level sided argument.

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Posted: 19 March 2007 09:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 105 ]  
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It was a good attempt, NobleSavage, but obviously hopeless. Roger’s beliefs make as much sense as a belief in a supernatural god. He’s deluded, and ought to be quiet when grown-ups are talking.

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