[quote author=“Tungp’o”]It puzzles me why those who don’t believe in God so vehemently bother to shake their fists at what they believe doesn’t exist in the first place.
The fist-shaking is aimed at the nonsensical beliefs and bad behavior of knuckleheaded belivers, not any alleged god/s.
I don’t much care what people believe, however I do care what people DO.
So, their beliefs only enter into my assessment when it is the primary or even secondary cause of what they are Doing.
And I only care about what they DO when it affects things I also care about, like the USA, our future as a country, human civilization, our future as a species, little things like that, not to mention my own personal freedoms.
I think my issue with the religious in this country, as I have stated before, is that they are being used, they are being lied to on the basis of their irrational belief to vote in a way that will lead this country down a road toward more authoritarian government, worse educational standards, and more largesse for businesses that fundamentally are now global, and don’t really give a rat’s ass about US as a country.
My issue with the religious in other countries, for example Islamic extremists, is while I can see their point about the fundamental injustices and decadence of Western Civilization, I don’t tend to agree Holy War is the solution.
So, no, I don’t go shaking my fist at those that believe and are sitting quietly in a corner communing with their god. I only shake my fists back at those who shook them first.
Iisbliss wrote:
“So, no, I don’t go shaking my fist at those that believe and are sitting quietly in a corner communing with their god. I only shake my fists back at those who shook them first.”
Why shake your fist back? Couldn’t you show a little class, why stoop to their level by playing their game? If actions are more important than words, then what do your actions tell others. Don’t get me wrong, religions have real assholes in them. To such individuals emotions and the ability to stir them becomes a form of control over others. That’s why religions benefit from hatred and resentment as they do love and tolerance. Emotions help to could the logic of the mind and spirit.
I know that it’s frustrating to see a problem, know its source, and have no one believe you that a problem even exists. You can’t make a person see truth if they don’t want to look. You’ll just have to have some faith that mankind, when the time comes, will make the right decisions.
To have courage without pugnacity,
To have conviction without bigotry,
To have charity without condescension,
To have love of humanity without
Mere sentimentality,
To have meekness with power
And emotion with sanity –
That is brotherhood.
Charless Evans Hughes
You’ll just have to have some faith that mankind, when the time comes, will make the right decisions.
Oh I have that faith, I also realize that I am a part of mankind. I am not a spectator as you seem to be. I have a duty and responsiblity to speak out for what I think is right, just like everyone else.
Do you imagine “mankind’ is some nebulous force that will suddenly appear and do the right thing? Isn’t is possible the individual voices on this board are mankind trying to do the right thing?
Do you wait for a “leader” of mankind to make this decision for all of us? Is that your idea of “mankind”? Or is the dialogue between the factions that leads to compromise and consideration of opposing veiwpoints not a part of your “mankind”?
Are you gay? Are you black? Are you one of the unwashed masses?
Has nothing in the past 20 years affected your life out of all the changes around us?
Have you had a discussion with The Champ yet?
Its okay though if what is right for you is sitting in the corner communing with your God. But some of us feel motivated to speak, to discuss and even to argue. That is our job as part of helping mankind do the right thing.
“I also realize that I am a part of mankind. I am not a spectator as you seem to be. I have a duty and responsibility to speak out for what I think is right, just like everyone else.”
What makes me “just a spectator” and not a person of action like yourself? You say that you have a responsibility to speak out for what’s right…isn’t that what I just did with the last post I wrote? I don’t believe that shaking my fist or become exasperated over other peoples inability to do the right as being a steep in the right direction. Do you want to dominate or reform? How will belittling others belief’s make them reform?
“Do you wait for a “leader” of mankind to make this decision for all of us? Is that your idea of “mankind”? Or is the dialogue between the factions that leads to compromise and consideration of opposing viewpoints not a part of your “mankind”? “
I said before that you can’t make others do the right things is they don’t wish to. How will a leader make any difference? I’m sorry, but your mistaken that I am waiting for some leader to make everything right again. If what you want is compromise and consideration, how could anyone understand and consider another person’s point of view without some compassion?
“Are you gay? Are you black? Are you one of the unwashed masses?
Has nothing in the past 20 years affected your life out of all the changes around us?
“Have you had a discussion with The Champ yet?”
Yes, I know the Champ, and I understand his ways, I was raised around that kind of environment. I also know first hand that stooping down to that level solves nothing. How many converts has the Champ made? How many times, that you can remember, someone said, “Well gosh Champ…I never thought of it like that!”
My point is, if you really want to change things the best way of doing that is by doing the right thing whenever possible. What is the right thing? Well you’ll have figure that out for yourself.
Tungp’o, perhaps I should share with you the private messages that have come my way from the inspired.
Some do not wish to share with others that they are possibly crossing county lines, if ya know what I mean. But my door will always be open to you when you find yourself in the same position.
Tung, you clearly never really read anything I posted here, and just assumed that I hate Christians, in fact I think you assumed that is what this site is about.
Its not. If you understand me I am scared, and I am scared of a distinct population segment of the US that defines itself as Christian. I am scared of them because I know them. I am not so scared of Muslim extremists, because I don’t know them.
You arrived here with a chip on your shoulder young man = )
Sorry I misunderstood your point, you seem to want us all to be nice and turn the other cheek. But my motives in what I post and think and do are all political, and there are many fronts where I see what I consider “fake” or “politicized” Christian values being used in what my studies of the teachings of Christ show me to be very very “unchristian” activities, with an ulterior motive and possible agenda. Are these people reacting also out of fear? Of course.
I have two very hot issues with the “Christians”. One is the teaching of ID in schools, the other is supression of free speech by subtle and not so sublte intimidation. I see both these “movements” as dangerous to the country.
A chip on my shoulder? Isn’t that a little hypocritical especially coming from this forum? I can’t have objections or my own thoughts? Instead of responding to what I wrote you attack me personally?
Did I attack you personally? Did I say you have a hate filled agenda against religions or criticize that you have a chip on your shoulder? So what if you have a ship or not were both adults. I don’t really care, it has noting to do with the argument.
Why make this a back biting contest instead of a debate? I’m sorry if I bruised your ego, no need to be so emotional.
I’m not saying that you hate Christians. What I am saying is that from reading the posts and “The End of Faith” I can see were the discussion is going. I have objections based on reason as to what Sam Harris said and his plan and agenda he is proposing on a purely humanitarian stance. Not based upon some divine faith. I’m sorry if you think the secular stance of this forum is painfully logical and obvious, because it not.
You could have put my fears to rest by addressing my inquiry. Perhaps by giving me some reason that I am mistaken about my assumption that secular humanists are not advocating a more aggressive stance against conflicting groups.
I know someone else posted a message saying that Harris didn’t really need to clear up what he meant by reason or what the ultimate solution to the problem of faith should be since he was “preaching to the choir.” I got the impression that people on this forum felt it fruitless to explain to me my questions some of my objections. As if I it should be obvious why a purely secular policy is the best one. I’m sorry if I’m making people think. I didn’t mean to insult other people by making logical arguments. I didn’t mean to question the sacred idea of secualrzation.
I’m not saying that I have an alternative, but I’m justified in pointing out flaws in a chain of reasoning if I see them. I’m not advocating that everyone become super pacifists. What I am against is revenge or eye for an eye kind of policy.
Try not to take things so personal, you’ll live longer.
What I’ve come to realize is that people can only do so much within their short lifespan, but over time there is an evolution of ideas, upheld by even the most singular en masse. Each mind is a node within a relative web of social thought, where one node affects those in others. As technology improves, and societies finally stop to sit around in a secure enough state away from the fears we psych ourselves into, there will be a clear analysis, hopefully toward a better understanding of all human nature, and how we can grow above the simple primal urges that feed our need to snuff others offering dissidence. Simple dialogue, and sincere humble analysis of all ideas will hopefully briing about the most objectively applicable truths.
