Nationalism and shame
Posted: 05 May 2007 06:08 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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I believe that nationalism is a dangerous thing.  Nationalism creates pride; the opposite of pride is shame.  As a teacher, I see the shame that immigrant children feel because they were not born in the US.  It manifests itself in shame of their ability to speak more than one language or the color of their hair.  We are all part of the human race.  If we promote pride in being lucky enough to have been born in a country that is developed, we promote shame for those not so lucky.  The two go hand in hand. To me, pride is the result of personal achievements, not luck.  One can be proud to have worked hard to get good grades.  If the grades came easily because one was fortunate enough to be born with a a photographic memory, the pride is lessoned.  One can be proud of one's muscular body if it is the result of having exercises 3 hours a day for a year; however, no pride should be derived of having been born with genes that lead to physical beauty.  That is the result of luck.  Pride can be derived from having a lot of money if one worked hard to get it and that's what one wants.  However, if one was left a fortune by a hard working parent, there is no pride in such wealth.  Again, it is simply the result of having been lucky enough to be born into a family that already had it, not the result of anything the person did to get it.  Sam Harris is the best thing to happen to American culture in a long time!

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Posted: 05 May 2007 08:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Ok, it seems that most of your post concerned where pride is appropriate to feel, and where it is inappropriate.
I certainly agree to that some forms of nationalism is dangerous, but to cherish traditions handed down to you is not necessarily a bad thing, either.
It depends on what the tradition is about.

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Posted: 05 May 2007 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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I think there is a difference between honoring cultural activities and nationalism.  In fact, I would say that nationalism is about NOT honoring cultural activities.  This is what I see in my students who try to do so.  Some teachers discipline students for speaking their native languages amongst themselves.  They say, “This is America.  Speak English.”  This idea and action comes from a sense of nationalistic pride, not acceptance.  Therein lies the problem.

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Posted: 13 May 2007 07:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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[quote author=“msdiver”]I think there is a difference between honoring cultural activities and nationalism.  In fact, I would say that nationalism is about NOT honoring cultural activities.  This is what I see in my students who try to do so.  Some teachers discipline students for speaking their native languages amongst themselves.  They say, “This is America.  Speak English.”  This idea and action comes from a sense of nationalistic pride, not acceptance.  Therein lies the problem.

All you’re doing here is recognizing that nation-states are artificial constructs. They have no lasting value or legitimacy.

Nevertheless, within the context of a nation-state, you can let “honoring cultural diversity” take up an inordinate amount of time, even though the reasons for doing so are entirely artificial. Honoring cultural diversity is certainly easier than understanding electricity and magnetism.

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Posted: 14 May 2007 12:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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I was born and grew up in England and have travelled and lived in the US and France for the last five years or so. In my experience, those who are most proud of their countries are those who know least about them.

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Posted: 14 May 2007 02:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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I would add this:  Those who are the most proud of their countries no very little about any other countries.

from “The Scarlet Ibis” 

“Pride is a wonderful, terrible thing.”

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Posted: 14 May 2007 03:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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[quote author=“msdiver”]I would add this:  Those who are the most proud of their countries no very little about any other countries.

from “The Scarlet Ibis” 

“Pride is a wonderful, terrible thing.”

“[N]o”?

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Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Posted: 14 May 2007 03:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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[quote author=“homunculus”]”[N]o”?

Si! No weevil here. Know evil-speek. No, we’ve all seen it before.

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Posted: 16 May 2007 04:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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[quote author=“Salt Creek”]

All you’re doing here is recognizing that nation-states are artificial constructs. They have no lasting value or legitimacy.

Sure, if you don’t concernt your self with you legacy and your place in history.  Hell wit histry!  O’Donnel Rules!

Nevertheless, within the context of a nation-state, you can let “honoring cultural diversity” take up an inordinate amount of time, even though the reasons for doing so are entirely artificial. Honoring cultural diversity is certainly easier than understanding electricity and magnetism.

Uh-huh.  Message boards can do shite like dat 2.  Itsa nota soa hard ta lern lecrtik or bout magnuts.  Butt cultrull dibersty is nuch mo fun.

For shizzle my nizzle.

Peace out, homie.  :idea:

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