Sam Harris

I think i should get some input on this subject before proceeding.
I have never been comfortable with the us and them scenario and to remove this issue from my faith/religion concerns i am considering participating in religious forums. This forum is very helpful for us free thinkers but why "preach to the choir" when it comes to educating others.
Have any of you tried this approach?

[quote author=“Paul Hindle”]I think i should get some input on this subject before proceeding.
I have never been comfortable with the us and them scenario and to remove this issue from my faith/religion concerns i am considering participating in religious forums. This forum is very helpful for us free thinkers but why “preach to the choir” when it comes to educating others.
Have any of you tried this approach?

***
I’ve been discussing religion with all flavors of believers - Xian and Wiccan and panxxiests (and non-believers) for the past half dozen years.

I’m always amazed at the reaction from people concerning their simple beliefs.  Converting a believer to the side of logic and reason will rarely work.  That’s why inculcating kids to their parents’ belief system is so important.  Get them early and young and you’ll pretty much have them for life.  That’s why I’ve considered trying to get young kids as an “audience” as it were.

JL

[quote author=“exploded-planet-god”][quote author=“Paul Hindle”]I think i should get some input on this subject before proceeding.
I have never been comfortable with the us and them scenario and to remove this issue from my faith/religion concerns i am considering participating in religious forums. This forum is very helpful for us free thinkers but why “preach to the choir” when it comes to educating others.
Have any of you tried this approach?

***
I’ve been discussing religion with all flavors of believers - Xian and Wiccan and panxxiests (and non-believers) for the past half dozen years.

I’m always amazed at the reaction from people concerning their simple beliefs.  Converting a believer to the side of logic and reason will rarely work.  That’s why inculcating kids to their parents’ belief system is so important.  Get them early and young and you’ll pretty much have them for life.  That’s why I’ve considered trying to get young kids as an “audience” as it were.

JL

I must ask you, are you ready to martyr yourself? The path you suggest is dangerous as well as immoral. Do you have children? You can inculcate them.

To do as you say you are doing and have done is wrong because parents always want the best for their children. You have a belief system that pats you on the back for your success but you do not have to pay the price for children whose lives may be greatly disrupted by your intellectual activities. Are you there to comfort them when everything their parents have worked for is washed down the toilet? What gives you the right to play God?

[quote author=“lawrence”][quote author=“exploded-planet-god”][quote author=“Paul Hindle”]I think i should get some input on this subject before proceeding.
I have never been comfortable with the us and them scenario and to remove this issue from my faith/religion concerns i am considering participating in religious forums. This forum is very helpful for us free thinkers but why “preach to the choir” when it comes to educating others.
Have any of you tried this approach?

***
I’ve been discussing religion with all flavors of believers - Xian and Wiccan and panxxiests (and non-believers) for the past half dozen years.

I’m always amazed at the reaction from people concerning their simple beliefs.  Converting a believer to the side of logic and reason will rarely work.  That’s why inculcating kids to their parents’ belief system is so important.  Get them early and young and you’ll pretty much have them for life.  That’s why I’ve considered trying to get young kids as an “audience” as it were.

JL

I must ask you, are you ready to martyr yourself?

***
Not yet.  I’m 43.

The path you suggest is dangerous as well as immoral.

***
It’s neither dangerous nor immoral.  Hence, why I’ve suggested it and have considered it.

Do you have children?

***
Nope.  Earth has plenty of people already.

You can inculcate them.

***
If I did, I wouldn’t as I believe in free will (as far as religous beliefs go).

To do as you say you are doing and have done is wrong because parents always want the best for their children.

***
Freedom of speech with an HONEST intent to explain something to someone is not wrong.

You have a belief system that pats you on the back for your success but you do not have to pay the price for children whose lives may be greatly disrupted by your intellectual activities.

***
I can’t recall my belief system patting me on the back (to the contrary, I’m in one of the belief minory groups).

Are you there to comfort them when everything their parents have worked for is washed down the toilet?

***
I would be should it come to that (but it hasn’t “yet”).

What gives you the right to play God?

***
Free will.  And, I’m not playing god.  I’m a little more consistent in my philosophy - LOL!

JL

there is a forum I found I play on

I dont attack others, I say what I think

I read what they think

I think more

I dont try to convince, I listen learn and offer my thoughts.

http://www.theologyweb.com/

this is an open forum, very well moderated, with sections for theists and non theists

lawrence wrote

The path you suggest is dangerous as well as immoral

Before i respond to your post, so as i don’t embarrass myself: ARE YOU SERIOUS !!!

Perhaps this was taken incorrectly but you did say you wanted to affect young children.

Socrates died for teaching to young men what their parents did not want them to hear. This was not meant to sound like a threat.

It is dangerous in that you will create many enemies.

I feel it is immoral to injure tender minds. I do not know what age group you are talking about but you did say young childrent. If they were of a legal adult age and emotionally responsible enough to live on their own then they are not children.

Not having children removes a veiwpoint from all of your thought. In the stages that humans travel through life having children is one for many. And it changes you as you are now responsible for the life that you have created.

Freedom of speech is an important freedom and I do not believe in censorship. My morals would not allow me to do anything that is harmful to children and therefore I would never market to children anything that could in any way ever be against that which I believe to be right. (I would never sell children toy weapons for example)

A may misunderstand your belief system put it seems to me to be nihilistic   exploded-planet-God.

Apolgies Iisbliss.

Paul Hindle of course I am serious. This is one of the main problems that fundamentalists have with American culture. (Outsiders taking away members of the tribe.)

[quote author=“lawrence”]Perhaps this was taken incorrectly but you did say you wanted to affect young children.

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Correct.

Socrates died for teaching to young men what their parents did not want them to hear. This was not meant to sound like a threat.

It is dangerous in that you will create many enemies.

***
Obviously. 

I feel it is immoral to injure tender minds.

***
1) I do not
2) “injure” is a 100% subjective term/concept

I do not know what age group you are talking about but you did say young childrent. If they were of a legal adult age and emotionally responsible enough to live on their own then they are not children.

***
Any age.

Not having children removes a veiwpoint from all of your thought.

***
Wouldn’t change my mindset at all.  Freedom is more important than anything (as far as I can tell).  Note that’s a subjective determination.

In the stages that humans travel through life having children is one for many. And it changes you as you are now responsible for the life that you have created.

Freedom of speech is an important freedom and I do not believe in censorship. My morals would not allow me to do anything that is harmful to children and therefore I would never market to children anything that could in any way ever be against that which I believe to be right. (I would never sell children toy weapons for example)

***
But “harmful” and “right” are 100% subjective terms as used above.

A may misunderstand your belief system put it seems to me to be nihilistic   exploded-planet-God.

***
My belief system is based on 2 absolutes (that I’ve come to realize):

1) free will exists and I’ll run my life based on that belief
2) freedom of choice is kind of a “sister” belief element in this tandem and is just as important

All else is subjective.

JL

Apolgies Iisbliss.

Paul Hindle of course I am serious. This is one of the main problems that fundamentalists have with American culture. (Outsiders taking away members of the tribe.)

You are dishonest with yourself.

You have not carefully thought out the assumption that having children would not change your mindset or (as communication seems to have broken down at this point)  you truly are not concerned with humanity and the problems that confront us on the Earth today.

[quote author=“lawrence”]You are dishonest with yourself.

You have not carefully thought out the assumption that having children would not change your mindset or (as communication seems to have broken down at this point)  you truly are not concerned with humanity and the problems that confront us on the Earth today.

***
Sorry, I spend hours per day trying to understand my actions and thoughts and beliefs.  I’m being perfectly honest with myself.

I have spent a lot of time thinking about having children and how it would NOT impact my mindset on things I’ve already thought about.  IOW, there are certainly some unforeseen things that might cause me to change my philosophy on something.

So, you can then safely say that “you truly are not concerned with humanity and the problems that confront us on earth today”.

How very nice for you.  Probably one of the most repugnant things someone’s ever said to me.  But, you’re free to do so.

If I had a daughter, would I be overprotective of her from her boyfriends?  NO!  Period.

If I had a son, would I “want him to be an atheist”?  No!  Period.

Just 2 examples.

JL

The responses to my original inquiry are useful and i will consider all views. I am a little confused by lawrences reluctance to sharing opinions on religious forums - how is it different from Sam’s book?
The democratic nations in which we live are directly influenced by the opinions of our fellow citizens. I want the government representitives (for us) to be making informed decisions and religious belief is a powerful influence. Therefore, what my neighbor believes is extremely relevant to my life and my country. The issue goes far beyond keeping someone comfortably deluded.
If i were to participate in religious forums my input would not include scientific arguments because this information is widely known. My participation would not even encourage a dismissal of their religion (they may be right !) The first of two ideas that i would express to them would be that their desire to find comfort,direction and support in their lives can be found in human companionship. The second idea is that they should not fear retribution for independent thought and study.

Paul, not only are you on target, but you are exactly on target.  I don’t know what your politics are:  mine are on the left, and the big problem with the left is that it preaches to the choir.  Why?  Because the choir are “people like me”, it’s safer, more comfortable, more gratifying, etc.  Not that people on the right are free of this problem, but the left hasit much worse than the right in this area.

Todd Gitlin, in his book Letters to a Young Activist (highly recommended) calls this phenomenon the Echo Chamber, in the sense that you hear your own opinions and ideas reflected back at you.

It is a much braver thing to go out and talk to people who don’t share your views.  Much braver, but it is, really, what we all need to do.  But I agree with those who sayyou have to do it carefully.  that means being polite and respectful at all times; asking a lot of questions, and not shoving atheism down people’s throats.  You do this NOT because it’s courteous (although that’s important) but because being disrespectful and proselytizing DOESN"T work.  Deists have such a bigoted view of atheists that simply be being informed and decent, you will a great impact.

Good luck!
Hillary

[quote author=“Paul Hindle”]The responses to my original inquiry are useful and i will consider all views. I am a little confused by lawrences reluctance to sharing opinions on religious forums - how is it different from Sam’s book?

This is the first time I have ever experienced this forum idea and I am trying to understand everyones point of view without offending anyone . I apologize to exploded-planet-god for making assumptions about what you think and trying to catgorize you. I am not relucant to share my veiws in a religious setting or on a religious forum. Just have not got there yet. I have been trying to understand other points of view.

Now, the only point I was attempting to make, through the use of my own emotion, exploded-planet-god, was that no parent wants unknown individuals to try to sway their sons and daughters to become rebelious. Most religions have some form ‘honor thy parents’. For the Chinese this is main thrust. It is unrealistic to expect parents not to want to protect their children. It would be nice if falsity was not taught by parents to childern but, most, do the best to give thier children the tools that are neccesary to survive in the world.

[quote author=“hrettig”] the Echo Chamber

I came to this forum because Sam invited me. And I realize there is little value in honing your belief system in an Echo Chamber.

[quote author=“lawrence”][quote author=“Paul Hindle”]The responses to my original inquiry are useful and i will consider all views. I am a little confused by lawrences reluctance to sharing opinions on religious forums - how is it different from Sam’s book?

This is the first time I have ever experienced this forum idea and I am trying to understand everyones point of view without offending anyone . I apologize to exploded-planet-god for making assumptions about what you think and trying to catgorize you. I am not relucant to share my veiws in a religious setting or on a religious forum. Just have not got there yet. I have been trying to understand other points of view.

Now, the only point I was attempting to make, through the use of my own emotion, exploded-planet-god, was that no parent wants unknown individuals to try to sway their sons and daughters to become rebelious.

***
The amount of desire a parent has to make sure it is ONLY them that has influence on their offspring is directly proportional to their own ego.  The thrust of your statement above sounds what a very religious person would say about the “infidels” or anyone who doesn’t share a very close approximation of their “beliefs” would say.

Most religions have some form ‘honor thy parents’. For the Chinese this is main thrust. It is unrealistic to expect parents not to want to protect their children. It would be nice if falsity was not taught by parents to childern but, most, do the best to give thier children the tools that are neccesary to survive in the world.

***
Honor and respect don’t come for free.  They must be earned.

JL

[quote author=“exploded-planet-god”].

The amount of desire a parent has to make sure it is ONLY them that has influence on their offspring is directly proportional to their own ego.  The thrust of your statement above sounds what a very religious person would say about the “infidels” or anyone who doesn’t share a very close approximation of their “beliefs” would say.

Now you are making assumptions about thoughts in other minds.

I found the following printed in the Los Angeles Times this morning and thought that this might shed light on our disagreement.

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Although we don’t think about it this way, a school’s curriculum is a mind-altering device, a means through which children’s minds are shaped with ideas, skills and beliefs about the world. Because what we teach the young is so important, we need to be particularly careful about what we include and equally as careful about what we don’t.

Creative thinking abhors routine. Routines may be good for the assembly line, where surprise is the last thing you want. As our schools become increasingly managed by an industrial ethos that prespecifies and then measures outcomes, there is an increased need for the arts as a counterbalance.

Arts teach children to exercise that most exquisite of capacities, the ability to make judgments in the absence of rules. There is so much in school that emphasizes fealty to rules. The rules that the arts obey are located in our children’s emotional interior; children come to feel a rightness of fit among the qualities with which they work. There is no rule book to provide recipes or algorithms to calculate conclusions. They must exercise judgment by looking inside themselves.

The arts also teach that neither words nor numbers define the limits of our cognition; we know more than we can tell. There are many experiences and a multitude of occasions in which we need art forms to say what literal language cannot say.
   
By Elliot W. Eisner,  professor of education and art at Stanford University

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If your idea is to effect children through socially acceptable art (ie not something obscene) then I would have to say I respect that. Personally depictions of Christ nailed to a cross are obscene to me. But I must admit they are effective.