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to prove God
Posted: 29 May 2008 01:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 256 ]  
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paulyr2 - 29 May 2008 04:29 PM

Proof of existence of living supreme Being:

homo Sapiens.

Jesus effing Christ, not another Champ clone.

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“We have it recorded in a book called the Bible.”

To be blunt, the Bible records all manner of silly shit.

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Posted: 29 May 2008 01:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 257 ]  
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paulyr2 - 29 May 2008 04:29 PM

Proof of existence of living supreme Being:

homo Sapiens.

Question to Christians/Muslims/Jews and all who try to prove the existence of their god.

How does this and other wonders of the universe support the existence of your particular god? As much as I try I see no connection. In particular, the beauty of this universe is in sharp contrast with the ugliness of your god and your religion.

Therefore, my friend, discussing the spiritual aspects of life will not validate your religion even if you show me the proof of existence of “living supreme Being” (which you will not), and is pointless. Let’s discuss, instead, the merits or the lack of them of your religion.

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Posted: 29 May 2008 02:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 258 ]  
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To Thomas Orr, dismith, Aaron:

Thanks for your quick responses (response of dismith is
crude, though).  You all want to know how self-knowing
equates to knowledge of Divinity.  Simple answer is medi-
tation, i.e., examine yourself without preconception.
Strip away all knowledge, empirically gained, and what are
you left with?

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Posted: 29 May 2008 02:15 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 259 ]  
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paulyr2 - 29 May 2008 06:06 PM

To Thomas Orr, dismith, Aaron:

Thanks for your quick responses (response of dismith is
crude, though).  You all want to know how self-knowing
equates to knowledge of Divinity.  Simple answer is medi-
tation, i.e., examine yourself without preconception.
Strip away all knowledge, empirically gained, and what are
you left with?

You’re left with what Pirsig called a restaurant with a 30,000-page menu and no food (his description of metaphysics), and some changes on the electroencephalogram.  Altered states of attention say nothing about a supreme being.

[ Edited: 29 May 2008 02:34 PM by Aaron]
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“The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray.”
          — Robert G. Ingersoll

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Posted: 30 May 2008 05:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 260 ]  
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paulyr2 - 29 May 2008 06:06 PM

To Thomas Orr, dismith, Aaron:

Thanks for your quick responses (response of dismith is
crude, though).  You all want to know how self-knowing
equates to knowledge of Divinity.  Simple answer is medi-
tation, i.e., examine yourself without preconception.
Strip away all knowledge, empirically gained, and what are
you left with?

Keen self-awareness.

But what does that have to do with some sort of supreme being, unless you’re trying to suggest we are supreme beings in some sense?

Byron

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 31 May 2008 07:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 261 ]  
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paulyr2 - 29 May 2008 06:06 PM

To Thomas Orr, dismith, Aaron:

Thanks for your quick responses (response of dismith is
crude, though).  You all want to know how self-knowing
equates to knowledge of Divinity.  Simple answer is medi-
tation, i.e., examine yourself without preconception.
Strip away all knowledge, empirically gained, and what are
you left with?

Strip away all knowledge and all you have is preconceptions, innate, or personal. To actually strip away all preconceptions, you would literally have to crash your brain. All you can do is disregard the incorrect preconceptions—and to do that, you need knowledge. To get the meditation right, you have to go through years of clearing away brain chatter and nonsense. You learn this through experience.

In other words, you gain empirical knowledge.

Now go back to the meditation room. The master has a big stick he wants to hit you with.

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Posted: 01 June 2008 07:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 262 ]  
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Take it from an agnostic, the fastest way to turn me into a hardcore Hitchens-style atheist is to let me listen to a muslim or an xian prat on about ‘proof’ that their pitiful god exists.  Hell, even their parent religion, judaism has the wit to laugh at them when it’s not shooting at the muslims or accepting ‘charitable’ donations from xian ‘frends of Isreal’.

If there is some ‘supreme entity’, a VERY big ‘if’, then it’s nothing any human mind ever could’ve, does, or will any time soon, grasp.  Hence, no ‘god’ invented by human minds is real.  All human gods and the religions built around them are psycho-social tools.  That has already been proven.

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The road of excess leads to the palace of Wisedom
-William Blake, “Proverbs of Hell”

Life, what is it but a dream?
- Lewis Carroll, “A boat Beneath a Sunny Sky

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Posted: 01 June 2008 08:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 263 ]  
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Thomas Orr - 29 May 2008 05:39 PM
paulyr2 - 29 May 2008 04:29 PM

Proof of existence of living supreme Being:

homo Sapiens.

Question to Christians/Muslims/Jews and all who try to prove the existence of their god.

How does this and other wonders of the universe support the existence of your particular god? As much as I try I see no connection. In particular, the beauty of this universe is in sharp contrast with the ugliness of your god and your religion.

Therefore, my friend, discussing the spiritual aspects of life will not validate your religion even if you show me the proof of existence of “living supreme Being” (which you will not), and is pointless. Let’s discuss, instead, the merits or the lack of them of your religion.

God is One.  Almost all religious traditions agree on this, even Hinduism essentially says there is one God - Brahma.  The names are different, but the Reality is One.  Read here by Dr. Umar Faruq Abd-Allah (Wymann-Landgraf): http://www.nawawi.org/downloads/article2.pdf

As to proof, if you are seeking proof of God such as the proof that there is furniture upon which you have set your computer, for example, then you will not find it, naturally.  Such proof is impossible as the very definition of anything infinite precludes containment.  And, nothing is truly infinite but God.  Having said that, belief in God is not illogical simply because it cannot be proven.  There are signs, or evidence, to believe in God.  Personal reflection and experience combined with evidence of the existence of men who claimed to be prophets, preaching the essentially same message of One God, and who came with scripture, form a good portion of this evidence.

Thus, believers conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that God exists given the signs for Him, though they may not be able to ‘proove’ His existence.  Those who can’t see the signs, end up lost.

[ Edited: 01 June 2008 09:20 AM by Jack Shooter]
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Posted: 01 June 2008 09:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 264 ]  
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Elentar - 31 May 2008 11:18 PM

Strip away all knowledge and all you have is preconceptions, innate, or personal.

Paulyr2 isn’t talking about a way of thinking. In meditation you try to cease thinking and leave yourself with only awareness, and you minimize even that as much as possible as well. It’s about trying to achieve ... I guess perceptual non-being is the best way to describe it as I understand the whole schtick. It’s about achieving a state in which the mind is still. It’s pretty fantastic exercise for cognitive self-discipline, and there are other effects that are pretty well known and soundly substantiated (there are also a lot of alleged effects that aren’t so substantiated, of course). But it’s not about epistemology.

Byron

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 01 June 2008 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 265 ]  
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I don’t think it’s possible to prove God’s existence to everybody’s satisfaction.  I do think anyone can look deeply inside him/herself and de-
termine whether there is a spiritual connection to a Creator.  Sometimes this
will take a lot of work.  The Buddha, an expert in Indian forms of meditation,
a person who woke up, neither denied nor affirmed the existence of gods. 
  My belief in the Father of Jesus Christ is based on personal experience.  It
is based on a feeling of being forgiven of terrible sins together with a calm
assurance of my place in the scheme of things.  This experience is open to any human, I think, though we may put differing interpretations on it.

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Posted: 01 June 2008 04:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 266 ]  
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paulyr2 - 01 June 2008 07:42 PM

I don’t think it’s possible to prove God’s existence to everybody’s satisfaction.  I do think anyone can look deeply inside him/herself and de-
termine whether there is a spiritual connection to a Creator.

However, when one develops sufficient self-discipline and humility and intellectual integrity one learns to avoid those kinds of presumptions, and overcomes the urge to form conclusions about personal emotional states and subjective experiences.

Byron

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 19 June 2008 03:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 267 ]  
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Unanswered question
A Checkmate or an S.O.S. Sam Harris?

SkepticX Posted: 28 May 2008 11:08 AM
Not likely. Kaku thinks like an adult ... which is why you don’t see him trying to impose disingenuous, infantile “yes or no” pseudo-questions on people.

So do you agree with Kaku?
1) 100%
2) 1%
3) 0%

—————-

unbeliever
What should we do now that we are here?

a) Have control over the universe is the main goal (From netred972, Michio Kaku )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7FVjATcqvc&feature=related
b) There is no grand purpose for our existence, No “why”. (From Aaron, Lawrence m. Krauss, Glenn D. Starkman, and Dennis Overbye).
c) We don’t know. If there is a purpose, we have not found it. (From Jefe )
d) I don’t have any explanation for my reality (From SkepticX & Mia)

e) Unbeliever (you answer here):

f) Sam Harris ??????

“Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty”

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Posted: 01 August 2008 08:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 268 ]  
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For option number one, I would contend that the universe wouldn’t end if everyone was dead, just the perception of it. But I know what you are saying.

For option number 2, I find that a very refreshing idea, in that I haven’t actually seen it before. But you are supposing that time can be traveled, that it is necessarily a loop of sorts, and that if the end result of life’s success would be a single god, instead of many. If we gradually reached this state of perfection, why would there be just one being left in the end?

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Posted: 05 August 2008 04:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 269 ]  
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Nod

Posted: 01 August 2008 08:44 PM  

Why would there be just one being left in the end?


That is a decision the ONE must take.

unbeliever
What should we do now that we are here?

a) Have control over the universe is the main goal (From netred972, Michio Kaku )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V7FVjATcqvc&feature=related
b) There is no grand purpose for our existence, No “why”. (From Aaron, Lawrence m. Krauss, Glenn D. Starkman, and Dennis Overbye).
c) We don’t know. If there is a purpose, we have not found it. (From Jefe )
d) I don’t have any explanation for my reality (From SkepticX & Mia)

e) Unbeliever (you answer here):

f) Sam Harris ??????

“Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
“I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,” says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty”

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Posted: 07 August 2008 05:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 270 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 01 June 2008 12:51 PM
Thomas Orr - 29 May 2008 05:39 PM
paulyr2 - 29 May 2008 04:29 PM

Proof of existence of living supreme Being:

homo Sapiens.

Question to Christians/Muslims/Jews and all who try to prove the existence of their god.

How does this and other wonders of the universe support the existence of your particular god? As much as I try I see no connection. In particular, the beauty of this universe is in sharp contrast with the ugliness of your god and your religion.

Therefore, my friend, discussing the spiritual aspects of life will not validate your religion even if you show me the proof of existence of “living supreme Being” (which you will not), and is pointless. Let’s discuss, instead, the merits or the lack of them of your religion.

God is One.  Almost all religious traditions agree on this, even Hinduism essentially says there is one God - Brahma.  The names are different, but the Reality is One.  Read here by Dr. Umar Faruq Abd-Allah (Wymann-Landgraf): http://www.nawawi.org/downloads/article2.pdf

As to proof, if you are seeking proof of God such as the proof that there is furniture upon which you have set your computer, for example, then you will not find it, naturally.  Such proof is impossible as the very definition of anything infinite precludes containment.  And, nothing is truly infinite but God.  Having said that, belief in God is not illogical simply because it cannot be proven.  There are signs, or evidence, to believe in God.  Personal reflection and experience combined with evidence of the existence of men who claimed to be prophets, preaching the essentially same message of One God, and who came with scripture, form a good portion of this evidence.

Thus, believers conclude beyond a reasonable doubt that God exists given the signs for Him, though they may not be able to ‘proove’ His existence.  Those who can’t see the signs, end up lost.

Jack,

you didn’t understand. I don’t discount your god because of the competition from other gods.

I discount your god because it is an ugly god undeserving any serious consideration. You may as well prove the logical necessity for the Supreme Being - and only One Supreme Being - to exist and still it will not move an inch me because your god cannot possibly be such a being.

For once stop quoting your authorities in scriptures and give a serious thought to what I said. Believe me, the failure of your religion is less in wicked hearts of infidels and more with the quality of the religion itself. Give the people even an illusion of something pretty and they will flock to it like they flocked in sixties to the Eastern cults and religions.

Regards,

TO

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