I don’t know how many have read Sam’s recent article (co-authored with Salmon Rushdie) from the LA Times on the plight of A. H. Ali (author of Infidel). Does anyone know if there ia any way to give her support though any orgaization or any means or any contact to support her?
Her plight does emphasize Sam’s point that are religions are not equal in there wrongdoing, but in any event she certainly deserves the support of anyone who supports free speech, freedom of or from religion, as well as enlightenment ideals.
Christopher Hitchens wrote a piece asking for contributions to help pay for her bodyguard services in America.
I just finished reading her amazing book “Infidel” a couple of days ago. There’s little doubt that the Dutch are simply afraid of an uprising. Her commentary led to burning of mosques and other chaos there. After Theo was killed the government basically kidnapped her and took her to an airforce base without even letting her know where she was- the idea being that if someone were to kill her too, it would lead to all out social chaos involving Islamists. The Dutch government is trying to avoid the problem of Islam by not facing it. Harris and Rushdie’s article claims that it is more expensive to pay for her stay in Holland than the U.S., so money must not be the issue.
I am a big fan of Sam Harris, but I think this article is a gross simplification and, frankly, a false accusation.
The Dutch government made an agreement with Hirsi Ali which stated that she would have to find her own sources of funding when abroad for an indefinite amount of time, to finance her security. Hirsi Ali has been given a period to obtain a green card and find funding of her own in America - which was extended twice. As you can read in Hitchens’ article (which also makes a tasteless and irrelevant reference to the Srebrenica massacre, cherry-picking facts to cite and shedding a very unfair light on this horrible event), Dutch guards protected her on US soil until the US asked that this be discontinued (after which the Netherlands was paying the bill for her protection by an American company).
Now, the Dutch politicians are reluctant to continue to pay for her security there (working for a wealthy company in a wealthy country, neither of which is paying a penny for her safety).
Hirsi Ali promptly moved back to the Netherlands. Let’s not forget that her Dutch citizenship has never been revoked, NOR has the Dutch Government’s funding of her security. Why is it the Dutch government’s responsibility to continue to pay for the security of her (best-selling and presumably well-to-do) citizens should they choose to work and live in another country indefinitely (and, might I add: for a right-wing institution that has strong ties with the Bush administration, and PLENTY of money to boot - why don’t they provide this security?)? Hirsi Ali has hinted many times at wishing to remain in the US and eventually gaining US citizenship.
To show that my government has in fact been very supportive, I reluctantly point to the fact that Hirsi Ali came to the Netherlands under false pretenses and lied to get her Dutch citizenship. Don’t get me wrong, this is (in my eyes) a very minor infraction that should be excused, considering her past - but my point is it HAS been excused, her citizenship was never revoked and the government will always pay for her safety in the Netherlands (and already has paid for her safety abroad for long stretches of time). I am proud of my government’s support for her so far, but meanwhile I fully understand its reluctance to continue this support indefinitely if she wishes to remain in the US.
Anyone who implies that the Dutch government is now ‘abandoning her’ for ‘fear of a Muslim uprising’ or any such nonsense really misses the point in my eyes.
I really think that this article does not reflect all of the facts, and paints an unfair picture.
I had the feeling that the public opinion in the Netherlands about Theo Van Gogh and Hirsi Ali rather tends to “they asked for it” and although almost everybody was shocked by the murder the assumption Van Gogh did something incorrect in producing submission pt1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLThSI8nlKQ) prevails.
In Europe in general the decadent notion is very strong that “Islamophobia” is worse than muslim fanaticism.
I had the feeling that the public opinion in the Netherlands about Theo Van Gogh and Hirsi Ali rather tends to “they asked for it”
In Europe in general the decadent notion is very strong that “Islamophobia” is worse than muslim fanaticism.
You’re dead wrong on both counts, and it’s quite an offensive post. I don’t know what else to say to this. If you don’t believe me, visit the country, read the newspapers, talk to people, watch the TV shows. Your statement, frankly, is just rubbish.
You are gravely mistaken. But that hardly surprising since the majority of the Dutch are either Hypocrites (Muslims), Ignorant (Political Correct Left) or Deluded by the Media.
The Dutch Government promised to finance her protection until this responsibility was transferred to others. But the Christian Minister (Hirsch Ballin), which obviously has a grudge against Political Incorrect Atheists, changed the word “transferred” to “transition”. They didn’t communicated clearly that she had to finance her own security over time, which she obviosly couldn’t afford herself and they knew it.
When the Prime Minister told her to stay away from the Netherlands, he obviously did it to please the Dutch voters,
but forgot he was failing his responsibility as a prime Minister. Instead of helping her, the political establishment and media tried to portray Hirshi Ali as a mentally sick person, which needed psychotherapy.
Rita Verdonkt, the Minister which was responsible for her departure from the Nederland’s, had personally promised to support her to get protection, but in the Parliament she suddenly voted against her protecting, and yet again proved what kind of politician she really is.
Despite a Jurisdiction promise of the Dutch Government to protect her, Hirshi Ali is now forced to find funds for her security elsewhere. For the moment, she has received enough fund from private individuals to secure herself but it is not enough to last for long.
source: http://depers.republisher.modernmedia.nl/7602/default.aspx#8
[ Edited: 21 November 2007 06:54 AM by Sebastiaan]
I had the feeling that the public opinion in the Netherlands about Theo Van Gogh and Hirsi Ali rather tends to “they asked for it” and although almost everybody was shocked by the murder the assumption Van Gogh did something incorrect in producing submission pt1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLThSI8nlKQ) prevails.
In Europe in general the decadent notion is very strong that “Islamophobia” is worse than muslim fanaticism.
Sebastiaan, your post is offensive and ignorant (“the majority of the Dutch are either Hypocrites (Muslims), Ignorant (Political Correct Left) or Deluded by the Media.”).
Give me a break. Or at least give me some arguments or evidence.
“When the Prime Minister told her to stay away from the Netherlands, he obviously did it to please the Dutch voters”
The PM never said this and in fact, right now the government has said that it will only pay for her security in the Netherlands, i.e. the exact opposite of what you are saying.
“Despite a Jurisdiction promise of the Dutch Government to protect her, Hirshi Ali is now forced find funds for her security elsewhere.”
She is not forced to find funds elsewhere. Funds are waiting for her in the Netherlands for as long as she needs them and her employer in the US can certainly pay for it while she is there. If they refuse, then perhaps she can finance it herself if she wishes to remain in the US.
I do agree that Rita Verdonk is an idiot and she behaved terribly during Ali’s ordeal, but the rest of your post, just like many other posts here, is piffle. Phrases like “all dutch are hypocrites, you’re wrong” don’t count for arguments my friend.
If this gross generalization (“the majority of the Dutch are either Hypocrites (Muslims), Ignorant (Political Correct Left) or Deluded by the Media.”), if this is not offensive , then what is offensive?
Sebastiaan, tell me honestly. Do I really sound ‘deluded by left propaganda’? And no, I am actually not easily offended at all, as a person. However, there is nothing that grinds my gears more than statements such as “the majority of the Dutch are either Hypocrites (Muslims), Ignorant (Political Correct Left) or Deluded by the Media.” You can’t expect me to let that one go; it is the sort of language of which we should all be wary on this forum.
You accuse me of being politically correct, and of disagreeing with anything that is not. If that were true, do you really think I could be found on this forum, proclaiming I love Sam Harris’ books?
The reason I love Sam Harris, Richard Dawkins etc. is because they are a powerful voice against people who generalize, people who are intolerant. In this debate, however, I feel that Harris, Hitchens etc do exactly that to an extent, as do you with your accusations against the Dutch people.
I am not ‘deluded’, nor do I see why I am a hypocrite. I never said that things couldn’t have been handled better and I’m ashamed of people like Rita Verdonk in the Dutch government. I would have been proud if the government had continued to pay for her security, but I can also understand that it doesn’t, for reasons mentioned above.
It is a shame that Ali is now so cross with the Netherlands, but the fact that she is hardly changes my mind. The interview you posted is an interesting read but it offers nothing new. Some of her statements concerning where responsibilities lie make little sense to me.
In the end, I wish her all the best and I respect a lot of what she’s done. That is not the issue here. The issue, in my eyes, is that the Netherlands should not be blamed like this, especially not in such a severe manner (read Hitchens’ article to see what I mean; it goes too far by any stretch of the imagination). Sam Harris and Rushdie, to me, also paint a rather one-sided picture that is unfair.
I had the feeling that the public opinion in the Netherlands about Theo Van Gogh and Hirsi Ali rather tends to “they asked for it” and although almost everybody was shocked by the murder the assumption Van Gogh did something incorrect in producing submission pt1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLThSI8nlKQ) prevails.
In Europe in general the decadent notion is very strong that “Islamophobia” is worse than muslim fanaticism.
Let me guess .....
An American?
Oh silly European ... if you want us to take you seriously as a competing power, spend some money on your military ... but why don’t you tell us how it really is ... why don’t you tell us why Europeans don’t even want to discuss (indeed, ban under the guise of hate speech laws) the fact that a growing segment of your population, the segment that’s actually breeding, and who hates the Western tradition which you believe your championing? Your trouble is you’re totally ill-equipped, intellectually, as well as in the sack, to deal with them. You’ve lost civilizational confidence in the Western ideal, thinking it just as good as any other form of society. But your increasing Muslim population doesn’t think Islam is just as good as any other form of society, they think Islam is better than Europe. To their credit, they are not relativists.
