Try to understand that it was never my intention to accuse the Dutch people in general sense, I was merely relating to the news messages in the dutch media related to Hirsi Ali and some of the reaction I read at some forums. Also the word ‘deluded’ should have been ‘misguided’ by the media which tried to portay her as a mentally sick (atheist) person for criticizing Islam. The Media and many individuals that critisised her, show a total lack of compasion, understanding, respect and gratitude of the courage and dedication she took to fight for human right of woman in islam.
As you probably know, female ex-muslim that dare to critisise islam publicly aren’t exaclty common (in fact, she is the currently only one). She could have made an easy going career for herself in dutch politics, but instead this true hero, consciously choose to put herself selflessly on the line for others (which don’t even appreciate it). This is because the occupation of critisising Islam openly is very dangerous, by some even considered a suicidal occupation. She is essentialy on every radical Muslim hitlist that want a garanteed trip to paradise (with their 72 virgins) when they die. Despite her courage and bravery, she ain’t no fool and was only willing to fight for the rights of woman at the promise that her movement freedom and security would always be garanteed at home or abroad (like Amerika).
Now the Dutch goverment has broken that sacret agreement by no longer exdending financing her security in America (which by the way is cheaper in Amerika than in the Netherlands). Of cource she reacted furiously on the Dutch prime minister which did nothing to prevent this voting catastrophy. This shamefull act made me very angry and despise a majority of dutch politicians, in particular the Prime minister (Jan Peter Balkenende)which crealy doesn’t understand the words ‘leadership’ and ‘responsibility’.
So when I saw your message critisising her unfairly, I wrongly Identified you as one of those people I so despise. I admit that in my anger I overreacted, for that I’m sorry.
I had the feeling that the public opinion in the Netherlands about Theo Van Gogh and Hirsi Ali rather tends to “they asked for it” and although almost everybody was shocked by the murder the assumption Van Gogh did something incorrect in producing submission pt1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLThSI8nlKQ) prevails.
In Europe in general the decadent notion is very strong that “Islamophobia” is worse than muslim fanaticism.
Let me guess .....
An American?
Oh silly European ... if you want us to take you seriously as a competing power, spend some money on your military ... but why don’t you tell us how it really is ... why don’t you tell us why Europeans don’t even want to discuss (indeed, ban under the guise of hate speech laws) the fact that a growing segment of your population, the segment that’s actually breeding, and who hates the Western tradition which you believe your championing? Your trouble is you’re totally ill-equipped, intellectually, as well as in the sack, to deal with them. You’ve lost civilizational confidence in the Western ideal, thinking it just as good as any other form of society. But your increasing Muslim population doesn’t think Islam is just as good as any other form of society, they think Islam is better than Europe. To their credit, they are not relativists.
My main concern are Americans like you..
... an excuse even for the use of nuclear weapons
I have canceled my Netflix subscription this is much more important. I have extra cash that I just throwaway, so it might as well go to something honorable, like this.
I had the feeling that the public opinion in the Netherlands about Theo Van Gogh and Hirsi Ali rather tends to “they asked for it” and although almost everybody was shocked by the murder the assumption Van Gogh did something incorrect in producing submission pt1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLThSI8nlKQ) prevails.
In Europe in general the decadent notion is very strong that “Islamophobia” is worse than muslim fanaticism.
Let me guess .....
An American?
the funny thing is… I’m not even an American, I grew up in Germany with rather mixed ethnic background… (but that is out of context anyway) you can distort every discussion if you move it from the argument to the argumenter.
Anyway, I think that European elites are in general aware of the Islamist threat but they respond in a different way than the US, forced by certain inner-political and economical imperatives.
In some areas backward (muslim)immigrant communities are a significant political player, and a certain populism (I would not even call it “leftist” because of its difference to classical socialist or left-liberal thought, based on human equality and solidarity) seeks advantage of that.
Hence also a certain “Anti-americanism” plays into that, uniting perceived losers of globalisation with intellecual nihilism that sprang out of post-modern and culturepessimist schools of thought.
All this is very well described in the books of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, especially the new form of racism that poses as multiculturalism. Meaning that Muslims are not able to be normal citizens of a secular democracy because of their cultural programming, thus needing their own specific treatment, beeing allowed to mistreat their kids and abuse their wifes.
In a state based on universal human rights religious convictions become private affairs, its rules cannot be forced upon others. Nobody can ask for special treatment before the law because of their beliefs.
I just felt, and thus my statement, that this understanding got lost in the current debates in Europe (be it NL, F, UK or D).
Mel, I think you make some good points, and I agree that this whole situation should not be overlooked for the sake of being politically correct etc. However, what I find disturbing is the rather one-sided view of things that presents itself in statements like “Europe is being overrun by Muslims”, “Europe will be more than 50% Muslim soon” etc.
I think that European countries have made mistakes in their tolerance of some aspects of Islam that don’t mesh with the Western world, certainly, and I think that some left-wing people go too far in their criticism of the West, blaming terrorists on our own ‘disgusting intrusion’ of other countries etc. I think the Western world has a lot to be proud of and people shouldn’t be afraid to acknowledge this, and to compare it, in some cases, to other cultures and decide that we prefer ours, and want to keep in intact.
However, I think that we in the west should set the bar very high for ourselves as well, and this, in my view, means keeping an open mind, even when it is difficult to do so. I was shocked, disgusted and angered by Theo van Gogh’s murder, but I refuse to let these things fester and grow into an inherent hatred of everything Muslim: it would simply be unfair. There are many Muslims in the Netherlands, and their presence has been the subject of much interest and debate over the years. Most of this debate has been good-natured and constructive (some has not). If we fall into the trap of believing that Europe is turning into a big evil Muslim-empire, we focus only on the bad, and we will have misjudged many, many people. If we think like that we expect the Netherlands to be choking with mosques full of evil people who hate us.
This is simply very far from the truth. Overall, Europe is doing very well at the moment, both economically and in terms of the happiness of the population. It is still very safe in most European countries. I have seen signs of a trend in right-wing America to regard Europe as some sort of sinking, Muslim ship, which I think is incredibly warped and untrue.
In the end, we need brave voices like Hirsi Ali’s, to help us understand the bad sides of Islam, and help us figure out a way to keep that bad side out of our societies. It probably would have been for the best if the Dutch government continued to pay for her safety, if only to avoid this new source of dispute.
Meanwhile, however, I think we also need the voice of tolerance and open-mindedness inside ourselves, rather than just the voice of fear. I have seen a lot of constructive work done in the Netherlands to help Muslims integrate into our society. Sometimes it goes horribly wrong, and that’s what must be stopped.
Let there be no confusion: I condemn all terrorists, Muslim or otherwise, and I see no other way to deal with them than military intervention. However, I think we have seen plenty of evidence for the fact that fear, hatred and military intervention are not the best options when it comes to putting a stop to the conditions which breed terrorists in the first place.
I have canceled my Netflix subscription this is much more important. I have extra cash that I just throwaway, so it might as well go to something honorable, like this.
Site Admin for richaddawkins.net
Might I suggest that you help orphans and widows instead?
I have canceled my Netflix subscription this is much more important. I have extra cash that I just throwaway, so it might as well go to something honorable, like this.
Site Admin for richaddawkins.net
Might I suggest that you help orphans and widows instead?
UPDATE: DVDs are coming very soon from RDFRS! All proceeds from the sale of this DVD will go to the Ayaan Hirsi Ali Security Trust(Info on the trust here). Our DVD cover is shown below. The video on our DVDs was a 2-camera shoot in HD at 24fps, color corrected, and compressed to DVD. Our audio is from our own high-quality lapel mic setup. This upcoming 2-DVD set (glass mastered, professionally manufactured discs with full color jacket and on-disc art, like the other DVDs we’ve released) will be priced at $20 and will include:
So, just out of curiosity, who here has contributed or intends to contribute to the trust?
Rami
I also wonder….
Yesterday I finished listening to Infidel (on my iPod). I just submitted my monthly subscription to the Security Trust. I think this woman is a revolutionary. She lives with the constant threat of being murdered like Theo van Gogh - yet she continues to speak out against Islam, to champion free speech. I feel it is the very least I could do for her. It is the least I can do to stand up for the right to free speech and against the forces that are working to destroy it. This woman is my age, and when I look at her and see much she has accomplished, how she has had the courage to stand up against oppression, I am filled with great admiration. The least I can do is help keep her alive and safe, while she actually fights the fight for me by speaking out for freedom.
Get to know her and what she is about. Read Infidel, so you truly understand what it is that you would be paying to protect. I sincerely hope that, in the Spirit of Christmas , everyone on this board will sign up for a monthly donation - even if it is as tiny as $10/month. That’s less than three gallons of gas… One movie ticket.
, everyone on this board will sign up for a monthly donation - even if it is as tiny as $10/month. That’s less than three gallons of gas… One movie ticket.
