The Religion of Peace?
Posted: 15 October 2005 02:03 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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There is no way, of course, to verify some of the information on this site, but if even half of it is true, it is positively chilling!

 

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http://powerlessnolonger.com

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Posted: 15 October 2005 10:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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I thought that most of the Islamic terrorist attacks occured in Iraq and Afghanistan, but I see that India (39 in last 2 months), Pakistan (19), Thailand (19), and Southern Russia (18) are on par with Afghanistan(28).  Algeria, Bangladesh and Indonesia also have multiple attacks - all done in the name of Islam and most times against fellow Muslims.

It should not be surprising because when one looks at the life of Mohammed himself the bloodshed is everywhere.  I don’t know how many persons he himself killed, but his armies and spies have victims in the many thousands . . .  and the murder continues.

Bob

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Posted: 14 November 2005 07:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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[quote author=“CanZen”]It should not be surprising because when one looks at the life of Mohammed…

Don’t look; research, investigate.

If you only “look” to a situation, you can conclude everything. When i look at U.S.A., i can see blood, war; if i want to, but i don’t.

Tell me, what should Mohammed and his fellowers do, when non-muslim Arabs started killing every muslim they saw?

How did U.S.A. win their freedom? By conversation?!

I hoped to see rational discussions here, i was wrong i think.

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Posted: 14 November 2005 08:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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MegriM,

I see at least a halfhearted call for moderation and understanding in your post, but then there is the veiled threat that you would be almost equally disposed to view America’s efforts as the equivalent of terrorists. What would Iraq look like today with 140,000 Jihadis in control? Where in all of the attacks listed on the site above are the innocent bombers simply defending themselves?

MegriM, this web site is pretty well populated by people who have given up trying to apologize for any violence done in the name any religion whatsoever. We are not solely anti-Islamic per se; most are simply hoping among ourselves that there will be a general awakening to the irrationallity of religion in general. Even religious moderates who shy away from criticizing irrational belief are part of the apathy and inaction that allows it to continue in the name of diversity.

Welcome to the site, international views are welcome.

Rod

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Posted: 14 November 2005 09:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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[quote author=“MegriM”][quote author=“CanZen”]It should not be surprising because when one looks at the life of Mohammed…

Don’t look; research, investigate.

When I look at the evidence, I see people, of many different backgrounds, killing people for many different reasons.  When I try to research the root causes, things become a little more difficult, but this is what I have come up with:

People have disagreements over all sorts of things:  Property disputes, resource management issues, human rights issues, religious issues, etc.  Most of the time, people come up with a livable compromise, not perfect perhaps, but nobody has to die.  Sometimes, however, people cannot tolerate the situation, and, having no acceptable (to them) alternative, they kill people in order to accomplish their goals.

This applies to everyone, not just any single group.  So far so good?

So, why are people unable to agree on these things?  I believe that there is a fundamental dishonesty problem.  Political leaders lie about facts in order to get their people to support war.  Religious leaders mislead people into believing things which are untrue, making them believe that compromise is impossible, and leads to hell.

If you only “look” to a situation, you can conclude everything. When i look at U.S.A., i can see blood, war; if i want to, but i don’t.

Like anything else, the US is complicated.  However, comparing a nation to a religion is, I think, a poor comparison.  The USA, as a country, is a secular concept.  Islam, the religion, is not. 

Tell me, what should Mohammed and his fellowers do, when non-muslim Arabs started killing every muslim they saw?

A tough question, but deciding that all non-muslims should be killed, converted, or subjugated would not be my first choice.

How did U.S.A. win their freedom? By conversation?!

Much blood was shed in the revolutionary war, no doubt about it.

I hoped to see rational discussions here, i was wrong i think.

I can’t speak for anyone else, but I am more than happy to engage in rational conversation.

For the record:

I am an atheist.

I opposed the war in Iraq, but I think that, at this point, an immediate end to the occupation runs an unnacceptably high risk of further destabilizing the region.

I love my country.

I am not a supporter of the current administration.

I believe that the US and Europe are involved in the Middle East because of oil.

I take a dim view of religion in general, and the Abrahamic faiths in particular.

And a host of other things, but that should help clarify a few things.

I am, of course, more than happy to revisit any of the things that I believe, if good evidence or argument exists to compel me to do so.

So, that being said, I agree with the thrust that started this thread.  Islam is directly responsible for much otherwise avoidable loss of life.  Islam, of course, is not the only cause for death.  Not a single nation or people is entirely free from guilt at some point.

I know that not every person interprets Islam the same way.  However, it is clear that some people focus on passages that make peaceful coexistence with non-muslims an unacceptable situation, and the killing of innocent people, in the name of a holy war, acceptable.

-Matt

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Posted: 14 November 2005 04:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Chill . . . MegriM.

It’s not often that my comments are called irrational - although I’ve said some pretty stupid things here and there on this forum.  I guess my main point about the bloodshed and war surrounding the rise of Mohammed is that its a lot more brutal than anything about the life of that other “so-called” prophet, Jesus (I’m not concerned with the Mel Gibson version of the crucifixion and its relentless gore).  The point is - again remember I am an atheist - that there are better ways to resolve a dispute than a fight to the death or resort to killing of any kind.
I’m quite aware that there are compassionate and uplifting messages in the islamic faith, but you seem to believe that ALL I’ve seen is war and bloodshed.  I’m certainly no expert and that’s why I used the word ‘look’ rather than ‘research’ it was my way of letting people know that my knowledge of islam is not deep.

Anyway, like Pete has already said - I don’t see the benefit of any deistic faith and especially the Abrahamic ones, so don’t expect me to read the Koran from cover to cover in order to get a more friendly message. You may take this as an attack on your integrity and an insult to your intelligence, but how can you justify a man who was a murderer, who ordered followers to kill in his name, who had several wives (including some he wed as children) to be a prophet of something beautiful and full of love, hope and humanity?  I could never make that gigantic leap from knowing how the man (Mohammed) lived and his actions to placing him above all others who have given great wisdom to human kind and have lived by every word of their wisdom. (I refer here to the great teachers such as LaoTzu and Siddhartha Guatama.)

Oddly enough when I think of America I do see bloodshed and war - along with freedom and wealth and justice.  Crazy me, I like to have the whole picture rather than just those bits that I like or that I agree with.  And as a retort to your excuse that the muslims were fighting for their survival and (like Americans) had to resort to violence in order to win - I can show you the example of Canada as a nation that won its freedom through conversation, compromise and bargaining.  So war and bloodshed are not the answer, especially for a “nation of peace” (I mean Canada, not Islam).

Bob

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Posted: 21 December 2005 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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[quote author=“CanZen”]
It should not be surprising because when one looks at the life of Mohammed himself the bloodshed is everywhere. ...

Bob

Bob,
FYI:

http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/muhammadand.shtml

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Posted: 21 December 2005 07:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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[quote author=“hampsteadpete”]There is no way, of course, to verify some of the information on this site, but if even half of it is true, it is positively chilling!

 


FYI:
Islam and Jihad – The Struggle for Peace
http://www.shianews.com/hi/articles/islam/0000158.php

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Posted: 23 December 2005 10:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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[quote author=“Guest”][quote author=“CanZen”]
It should not be surprising because when one looks at the life of Mohammed himself the bloodshed is everywhere. ...

Bob

Guest wrote:  Bob,
FYI:

http://www.pbs.org/muhammad/muhammadand.shtml

Hi, Guest:

Okay, so you are pro Islam.  Or at least the links you provide are pro Islam.  One focal point that is being overlooked on this forum is that religion is spiraling out of control with respect to absolute god Truth and the willingness to die for this perception.  The narrow view that one has the only god approved Truth is dangerous and breeds psychotic polarized zealot factionous death cults.

Think Bin Ladin in a cave with a red button that can send a nuke to New York or San Fransisco.

Is it only a matter of time?

It doesn’t have to be Bin Ladin.  We have fundie christian extremists blowing up abortion clinics.  What will they evolve to… or what are they going to become capable of?

Have faith, fine.  But let’s all push for rational faith that includes an admission that nobody really knows what god really is or not.

Noggin

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Posted: 23 December 2005 10:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Noggin

Its not about faith or no faith.  You mention OBL ,what about a guy in a suit and with a clean shave, is he less dangerous?

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Posted: 30 January 2006 12:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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[quote author=“Guest”]Noggin

Its not about faith or no faith.  You mention OBL ,what about a guy in a suit and with a clean shave, is he less dangerous?

Yes, it is about faith. A guy in a suit and with a clean shave may be dangerous but if he is not associated with a religion he is an abberation. The scary thing about OBL is not that he wears a funny robe. Here is the list of things that have made headlines.

1. Death fatwa on Rushdi for “offending” Islam in a book.
2. Call to arms against the West and against Saudi Arabia royalty for desacrating the holly land of Saudi Arabia by allowing American troops to stay there.
3. Burning Dannish flags, beating up the Dannish personnel and protests of Islamic governments because of a comic strip.

After 9/11 somebody made a joke that soon Muslims will make claims to Manhattan because their “martyrs” died there. It is a sily joke but chillingly close to how Muslims are perceived from the outside of their faith. In addition, renouncing Islam is punishable by death and the way women in Islam are treated violates our notion of human rights.

How do you propose we reconcile those problems with our values? By reading the internet link you provided, which describes Islam as a peaceful religion? Are you ready to forcefully condemn all the actions taken in the name of of Islam I presented above? Are you ready to offer at least some compromise? Do you see that those things are unprovoked acts of war on our values?

Let’s talk about specifics and not the slogans about “the religion of peace”. We are ready to listen.

T.O.

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