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The problem of Islam
Posted: 16 October 2007 08:27 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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What is the best course of action to people who think that it is permissable to murder in order to keep their “faith” from being insulted:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/10/16/artist.controversy/index.html#cnnSTCText

Is there any non-violent solution to those who would piss on liberty and freedom of speech?

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Posted: 17 October 2007 01:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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MagiusII - 16 October 2007 12:27 PM

What is the best course of action to people who think that it is permissable to murder in order to keep their “faith” from being insulted:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/10/16/artist.controversy/index.html#cnnSTCText

Is there any non-violent solution to those who would piss on liberty and freedom of speech?

No.  Sometimes you actually have to fight.  And liberty and freedom are worth fighting for.  Say it with me:  LIBERAL JIHAD!  Salafis, Wahabis, Revolutionary Mullahs, must be fought and destroyed on the actual battlefield and in the intellectual battelfield.  Tragically Europe will be in flames before the Europeans realize that Western civilization is worth fighting for.  But as Europe collapses, at least we on the other side of the Atlantic might just have enough time to wake up the reality of totalitarian facism in Islamic garb.  The classical leftist believes that all conflicts are really just misunderstandings, which is why he or she believes that diplomacy and talking can solve everything.  Imperial Islam views this, rightly, as weakness and stupidity on the part of the West.  It is a sad irony that Theo Van Gogh’s last words to his killer before he was repeatedly stabbed were “Can we talk about this?”

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Posted: 17 October 2007 02:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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I’ve often thought it would be a good idea to use holographic technology, or some sort of special effects to create an 3-D image of allah that would appear to the mullahs and imams, perhaps Ahmedinnahjacket, and tell them, in their languge of course, that what they are doing is not pleasing in the eyes and heart of allah.

I’ve also thought that dropping copies of Thomas Paine’s “Age of Reason” instead of bombs might help…
In my mind, we’ve got to figure out a way to demote all books professing holiness.

Publius,
As a mammal prone to liberal ideas, I happen to be one that agrees with your statements. Unfortunately, sometimes fighting fire with a bigger fire is the only solution. I stil weep for Theo and the all the works of art we are now denied. Oh, and I like your nom de plume.

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Posted: 18 October 2007 09:40 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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kope - 17 October 2007 08:51 PM
MagiusII - 16 October 2007 12:27 PM

What is the best course of action to people who think that it is permissable to murder in order to keep their “faith” from being insulted:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/10/16/artist.controversy/index.html#cnnSTCText

Is there any non-violent solution to those who would piss on liberty and freedom of speech?

the fact are no single person has been put to death in any islamic country for apostasy

the holy Quran

  1. Say : O ye that reject Faith!

2. I worship not that which ye worship,

3. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

4. And I will not worship that which ye have been wont to worship,

5. Nor will ye worship that which I worship.

6. To you be your Way, and to me mine.!


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TYOCR_6pFc&mode=related&search;=

Kope, perhaps you’re going moderate on us.  Nevertheless, this misses the point.  And I suspect that we could find numerous fatwas explaining why this verse is abrogated by later verses.  The basic problem remains, Islamism is a violent, incoherent, philosophy that would lead to a world of misery and suffering.  God’s law is being corrupted by men who claim to apply His law.  But they are idolators who substitue their own judgment for that of God.  Islam must be Westernized into a private matter of faith as it is with Judaism and Christianity.  The Islamists of the Wahabi and Al-Qauida varieties routinely declares other Muslims as takfiris, and thus sanctions killing them.  I don’t doubt that radicals misuse the Koran.  (For this, they will burn in hell.)  On the other hand, I have every confidence that when Bin Laden and his ilk cite chapter and verse which justifies their actions, that those verses are really in the Koran. And don’t even get me started on the fact Islamists encourage child sacrifice in the form of children blowing themselves up in the name of Allah.

Moreover, there is still the fact that Islam has not come up with anything to replace dhimmitude.

[ Edited: 18 October 2007 09:44 AM by Publius]
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Posted: 18 October 2007 09:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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isocratic infidel - 17 October 2007 06:04 PM

I’ve often thought it would be a good idea to use holographic technology, or some sort of special effects to create an 3-D image of allah that would appear to the mullahs and imams, perhaps Ahmedinnahjacket, and tell them, in their languge of course, that what they are doing is not pleasing in the eyes and heart of allah.

I’ve also thought that dropping copies of Thomas Paine’s “Age of Reason” instead of bombs might help…
In my mind, we’ve got to figure out a way to demote all books professing holiness.

Publius,
As a mammal prone to liberal ideas, I happen to be one that agrees with your statements. Unfortunately, sometimes fighting fire with a bigger fire is the only solution. I stil weep for Theo and the all the works of art we are now denied. Oh, and I like your nom de plume.

Thanks for the comments.  Respectfully disagree with the bolded comment.  In fact, the problem is the reverse.  People need to learn reverence for life and treat it as holy.  Demoting holy books is not the answer.  Promoting better interpretations, along with encouraging people to read other books is key.  The trouble is that when the Ottoman empire was in decline, they learned military technology from the west, but did not study Montesquieu, Rousseau, Locke, Hobbes, Kant.

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Posted: 18 October 2007 03:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Publius - 18 October 2007 01:44 PM

People need to learn reverence for life and treat it as holy.  Demoting holy books is not the answer.  Promoting better interpretations, along with encouraging people to read other books is key.  The trouble is that when the Ottoman empire was in decline, they learned military technology from the west, but did not study Montesquieu, Rousseau, Locke, Hobbes, Kant.

A very insightful comment.  You might even strengthen it by saying that they learned military technology from the west, but could not study Montesquieu, Rousseau, Locke, Hobbes, Kant.  Their religion had already ossified to the exclusion of such ideas.

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Posted: 18 October 2007 05:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Publius - 18 October 2007 01:44 PM

[  People need to learn reverence for life and treat it as holy.  Demoting holy books is not the answer.  Promoting better interpretations, along with encouraging people to read other books is key.

So, which interpretation of “convert, subjugate or kill the infidel’ (by the way, that means you and I) would you suggest ?

I can not disagree with you more. Demoting ‘holy books’ should be our prime focus, for it is from these barbaric, nonsensical texts that all the barbarism and nonsense follows.

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Posted: 19 October 2007 08:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Sander - 18 October 2007 09:00 PM
Publius - 18 October 2007 01:44 PM

[  People need to learn reverence for life and treat it as holy.  Demoting holy books is not the answer.  Promoting better interpretations, along with encouraging people to read other books is key.

So, which interpretation of “convert, subjugate or kill the infidel’ (by the way, that means you and I) would you suggest ?

I can not disagree with you more. Demoting ‘holy books’ should be our prime focus, for it is from these barbaric, nonsensical texts that all the barbarism and nonsense follows.

Au contraire, when people stop believing in God, they’ll pretty much believe anything, and thus you wind up with such things like communision, naziism, fascism ... get rid of God if you like, but those who do seem to relish and delight in human sacrifice ... if you want to demote anything, how’s about all the collective works of Marx and Derrida ...

As I noted above the problem is not Islam per se but Islamism:  Islam in that sense does not conceive of itself as a private religion the way Judaism and Christianity do.  From its inception, it was tied to an empire, and thus dealing with Islamism may require a liberal jihad, just like the one we are currently waging in Afghanistan and Iraq.  Sometimes, you have to actually fight.

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Posted: 19 October 2007 08:55 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Publius - 19 October 2007 12:06 PM

Au contraire, when people stop believing in God, they’ll pretty much believe anything,

are you speaking collectively?  Because I have experienced the exact opposite to your assertion.  Now that I do not believe in God, I am extremely skeptical of everything.

and thus you wind up with such things like communision, naziism, fascism ...

I would never embrace any sort of ideology, post theism.

get rid of God if you like, but those who do seem to relish and delight in human sacrifice ...

I don’t recall ever sacrificing humans or sanctioning it in any sort of way.  In fact, I believe I am quite opposed to such things.

Noggin

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Posted: 19 October 2007 09:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Noggin - 19 October 2007 12:55 PM
Publius - 19 October 2007 12:06 PM

Au contraire, when people stop believing in God, they’ll pretty much believe anything,

are you speaking collectively?  Because I have experienced the exact opposite to your assertion.  Now that I do not believe in God, I am extremely skeptical of everything.

The exception proves the rule, as they say.  Obviously, on an individual basis they’re will be loons who both believe in and don’t believe in God.  On the other hand, religion tends to be critical for the transmission of values between generations.  And most of those values tend to be life affirming ones that promote respect and reverance for life.

Islam does represent a striking challenge to that last assertion, but note that Muslims are breeding, secular Europe is not ... it is only a matter of time before there is no more Europe, only Eurabia.

and thus you wind up with such things like communision, naziism, fascism ...

I would never embrace any sort of ideology, post theism.

Why not?  Have you no framework then for evaluating the world?  That’s what an ideology is:  a framework.  My religion is not my ideology, it is, if I had to name it, classical liberalism.

get rid of God if you like, but those who do seem to relish and delight in human sacrifice ...

I don’t recall ever sacrificing humans or sanctioning it in any sort of way.  In fact, I believe I am quite opposed to such things.

Good to know.  And clearly even the religous may believe in child sacrifice (eg Palestinians and Iranians teach their children it is good to blow themselves up in the name of Allah).  On the other hand, societies where God and religion are absent, tend to be the most brutal.  (We can debate whether Hitler was a Christian or not, but truly, the real problem was his socialist ideology.  Naziism is really what the words means, national socialism, as opposed to worldwide revolutionary socialism practiced by the soviets).

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Posted: 19 October 2007 10:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Publius - 19 October 2007 01:32 PM

  On the other hand, societies where God and religion are absent, tend to be the most brutal.

All right, enough of this. I am calling ‘Bullshit’.
Sorry Publius, but that is an idiotic statement.
Why don’t you (re)read TEOF and come back to us with your new findings.

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Posted: 19 October 2007 10:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Publius wrote:

On the other hand, societies where God and religion are absent, tend to be the most brutal.

I disagree with this as a general statement.  Whether or not a society is brutal or not has to do with the values of that society and the absence of a belief in God or the absence of a Religion doesn’t necessarily determine a society’s values.  Look at most of the Northwest European countries.  They are probably the most civilized countries in the world and the least religious.

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Posted: 19 October 2007 10:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Sander - 19 October 2007 02:43 PM
Publius - 19 October 2007 01:32 PM

  On the other hand, societies where God and religion are absent, tend to be the most brutal.

All right, enough of this. I am calling ‘Bullshit’.
Sorry Publius, but that is an idiotic statement.
Why don’t you (re)read TEOF and come back to us with your new findings.

A deeply rational retort to my statement.  I expected better ... but I think your emotional ejeculation proves my point:  first civility goes, and then everything else ...

I’ve read it (and his other one too).  Interesting book.  For a much more sophisticated defense of atheism, go read Plato’s the Euthyphro.  A far more sublime attack on God than Harris’.  You’ve got to go back before the Treaty of Westphalia to find any really good examples of religious wars and killing of heretics.  I only have to dig back to last century to Soviet tyranny and fascism.  And unlike the brutality that occurred several hundred years ago, it’s nothing compared to the systematic brutality carried out by those regimes of the past century.

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Posted: 19 October 2007 01:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Publius - 19 October 2007 02:56 PM

A deeply rational retort to my statement.  I expected better ... but I think your emotional ejeculation proves my point:  first civility goes, and then everything else ...

I’ve read it (and his other one too).  Interesting book.  For a much more sophisticated defense of atheism, go read Plato’s the Euthyphro.  A far more sublime attack on God than Harris’.  You’ve got to go back before the Treaty of Westphalia to find any really good examples of religious wars and killing of heretics.  I only have to dig back to last century to Soviet tyranny and fascism.  And unlike the brutality that occurred several hundred years ago, it’s nothing compared to the systematic brutality carried out by those regimes of the past century.

You are lucky that I am in a good mood Plubius, otherwise I might have resorted to calling you an arrogant little cocksucker.
Your argument has been so thoroughly debunked that I don’t think it is really worth adding some more callus to my fingertips.
Let’s just do a very simple exercise. Think about very religious countries and look at their level of brutality. I shall even help you along: Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi-Arabia, etc.
Now think of some countries were religion has been pushed to the fringes; The Netherlands, Norway, Iceland, Sweden, etc. and look at the level of brutality in these societies. Or, to stay within the US; take a look at the most religious states and see how te quality of life stacks up to the less religious ones.

The problem with the Soviet Union and the Third Reich ( BTW, 50% of the Waffen SS were confessing Catholics ! ) and North Korea are not they are lacking religiosity, it is that they were too much LIKE a religious society.

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But that’s the way I like it baby, I don’t want to live forever.”

From the autobiography of A.A.Mills, ‘The passage of time, according to an estranged, casual tyrant.’

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Posted: 19 October 2007 01:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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Sander - 19 October 2007 05:11 PM
Publius - 19 October 2007 02:56 PM

A deeply rational retort to my statement.  I expected better ... but I think your emotional ejeculation proves my point:  first civility goes, and then everything else ...

I’ve read it (and his other one too).  Interesting book.  For a much more sophisticated defense of atheism, go read Plato’s the Euthyphro.  A far more sublime attack on God than Harris’.  You’ve got to go back before the Treaty of Westphalia to find any really good examples of religious wars and killing of heretics.  I only have to dig back to last century to Soviet tyranny and fascism.  And unlike the brutality that occurred several hundred years ago, it’s nothing compared to the systematic brutality carried out by those regimes of the past century.

You are lucky that I am in a good mood Plubius, otherwise I might have resorted to calling you an arrogant little cocksucker.
Your argument has been so thoroughly debunked that I don’t think it is really worth adding some more callus to my fingertips.
Let’s just do a very simple exercise. Think about very religious countries and look at their level of brutality. I shall even help you along: Afghanistan, Iran, Saudi-Arabia, etc.
Now think of some countries were religion has been pushed to the fringes; The Netherlands, Norway, Iceland, Sweden, etc. and look at the level of brutality in these societies. Or, to stay within the US; take a look at the most religious states and see how te quality of life stacks up to the less religious ones.

The problem with the Soviet Union and the Third Reich ( BTW, 50% of the Waffen SS were confessing Catholics ! ) and North Korea are not they are lacking religiosity, it is that they were too much LIKE a religious society.

More emotional ejaculations ... my, my ... I thought that sort of thing was the exclusive preserve of fanatics ... truly, though, I love it when people swear at me, when it comes from men I know I’ve touched a nerve, when it comes from women, they’re usually touching mine ...

... I don’t disagree with many of your observations.  Of course, if you read Mark Steyn’s book (America Alone) the demographic facts are clear:  all those nice secular places aren’t breeding.  Eurabia is becoming a reality.  Now I don’t deny - as a general matter - the brutality of Islamic countries, but your critique of the DPRK is misplaced.  Cults of personality as a basis for political rule tend to be avowedly atheist places.  And it is a fallacy to conclude that because there are some external trappings which resemble religious communities that such places are thereby examples of how religion has failed.

But I trust then that you agree with the need for liberal jihad (that I described briefly above) against both the Islamic world and the Commies ... no?

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Posted: 19 October 2007 02:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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And to think, only 1000 years ago it was far safer for a Jew to live in Baghdad than it way to live in Brussels.

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