Why no criticism of Zionism?
Posted: 29 October 2007 03:36 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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Why hasn’t Sam and/or Richard Dawkins attacked the absurd (malacious, evil and VERY DANGEROUS) belief in Zionism?

Sure, Richard Dawkins does a new special where he makes fun of astrologers and dousers, but leaves a belief that has killed more people than Islam and CAUSED the hatred of the west, totally abject to criticism?

It just seems like these two “Lights of Reason” would attack the very belief that sparked the entire problem in the middle east to begin with.

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Posted: 30 October 2007 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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3n7r0py - 29 October 2007 07:36 PM

Why hasn’t Sam and/or Richard Dawkins attacked the absurd (malacious, evil and VERY DANGEROUS) belief in Zionism?

Sure, Richard Dawkins does a new special where he makes fun of astrologers and dousers, but leaves a belief that has killed more people than Islam and CAUSED the hatred of the west, totally abject to criticism?

It just seems like these two “Lights of Reason” would attack the very belief that sparked the entire problem in the middle east to begin with.

Zionists did not spark the problems in the Middle East.
Zionism has only been around for a little over a hundred years. The problems in the Middle East have been ongoing for thousands of years.

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Posted: 01 November 2007 02:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/pdf/OriginoftheArab-IsraeliConflict.pdf

ORIGIN OF THE ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICT

Written BY JEWS, speaking out AGAINST ZIONISM.

...So, you’re comments aren’t entirely on the same field with history - although I still enjoy most of your views.

The Arab community, as it became increasingly aware of the Zionists’ intentions, strenuously opposed further Jewish immigration and land buying because it posed a real and imminent danger to the very existence of Arab society in Palestine. Because of this opposition, the entire Zionist project never could have been realized without the military backing of the British. The vast majority of the population of Palestine, by the way, had been Arabic since the seventh century A.D. (Over 1200 years)

http://www.ifamericansonlyknew.org/

[ Edited: 01 November 2007 03:00 PM by 3n7r0py]
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Posted: 04 November 2007 08:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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I think the issue with Zionism is a moot one. Most would agree that the British did wrong to the Palestinian people after World War I and the creation of Israel by United Nations mandate in 1948 was a hasty, knee-jerk reaction to the Holocost and the Palestinians were shafted in the process.

Also, I should mention that Jewish fundamentalist should in no way shape or form be excluded from criticism on the dangers of religon. And the role of such fanatacism in the current conflict provides a long list of examples of the danger of religon.

All that said, I do not share the trendy anti-Israel sentiment popular with liberals in Europe and parts of the state. Yes, I am quite critical of the government there, etc, etc. But I think it is important that we don’t forget that the nation of Israel is a largely secular people. The fact is there are Israelis and Palestians who recognize the simple solution when two peoples want the same land: a two state solution. The fact is it is extremists on both sides who think they have a divine claim to the land that are prolonging this conflict. If ever there is place where faith needs to be wiped out, it is Israel, and how fitting a place to end the Abramaic faiths than the land of their birth.

Anyway.

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Posted: 05 November 2007 12:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Apparently people can’t see that Zionism is just another ism created and formed to play it’s role in achieving a singular world government. No different than Communism, Socialism, Etc.

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Posted: 05 November 2007 12:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Here’s some more video that might shed a bit more perspective on the subject:

Zionism vs Judaism
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5196473013153371483

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Posted: 06 November 2007 10:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Has nothing close to the relevance and impact of Islam in today’s world.

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Posted: 08 November 2007 09:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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shock

Um, you’re wrong. Do more research.

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Posted: 08 November 2007 11:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Bokonon - 05 November 2007 01:39 AM

I think the issue with Zionism is a moot one. Most would agree that the British did wrong to the Palestinian people after World War I and the creation of Israel by United Nations mandate in 1948 was a hasty, knee-jerk reaction to the Holocost and the Palestinians were shafted in the process.

There was nothing knee jerk about it.  The Ottoman Empire should not have backed the Germans in WWI.  And the Arabs should not have backed the Nazis in WWII.  0 for 2.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110010834

For the record, the Jewish settlers endorsed the UN resolution in 47 that would have created a non-contiguous Israeli state.  The Arabs rejected it.  Israel would have been happy to go along its merry way after 48, but the Arabs attacked.  In 67 Israel defeated three armies.  The humiliation felt by Arabs has nothing to do with Israel, but their inability to come to grips with the fact that they currently do not possess a successful social model.  They are a shell of a former great empire and terrorism is the final death throws of an utterly and completely failed civilization.  For all their oil, they produce no culture, no art, no music, no dance, no new technology, no science.  Israel has no oil.  It invented hydroponics and has the third largest amount of companies listed on Nasdaq.

The fact is there are Israelis and Palestians who recognize the simple solution when two peoples want the same land: a two state solution.

A two state solution has always been supported by the Israelis.  The problem is the Arabs.  They are not interested in peace.  Witness Gaza.  No more Israelis there.  Unilateral withdrawal.  (Imagine if India had done that with Kashmir)  And still the Hamas cowards fire rockets at women and children.  They are not interested in peace.  They are interested in child sacrifice.  They teach their sons and daughters to blow themselves up in the name of God.  That is child sacrifice.

The fact is it is extremists on both sides who think they have a divine claim to the land that are prolonging this conflict. If ever there is place where faith needs to be wiped out, it is Israel, and how fitting a place to end the Abramaic faiths than the land of their birth.

This is extremism.  And it is precisely why Jews need a homeland, to protect us from crazies that express these sentiments.  Jerusalem is mentioned more than 800 times throughout the Tannach.  It is our home.  Wouldn’t you fight for your home?  Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran, but the Koran nevertheless expressly affirms the Jewish covenant, which is a promise to the land:

[2.40] O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and be faithful to (your) covenant with Me, I will fulfill (My) covenant with you; and of Me, Me alone, should you be afraid.
[2.41] And believe in what I have revealed, verifying that which is with you, and be not the first to deny it, neither take a mean price in exchange for My communications; and Me, Me alone should you fear.

[2.47] O children of Israel! call to mind My favor which I bestowed on you and that I made you excel the nations.

[5.12] And certainly Allah made a covenant with the children of Israel, and We raised up among them twelve chieftains; and Allah said: Surely I am with you; if you keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate and believe in My apostles and asslst them and offer to Allah a goodly gift, I will most certainly cover your evil deeds, and I will most certainly cause you to enter into gardens beneath which rivers flow, but whoever disbelieves from among you after that, he indeed shall lose the right way.

[17.104] And We said to the Israelites after him: Dwell in the land: and when the promise of the next life shall come to pass, we will bring you both together in judgment.
[17.105] And with truth have We revealed it, and with truth did it come; and We have not sent you but as the giver of good news and as a warner.

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Posted: 08 November 2007 06:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Prubilus, thank you for your well thought out reply. First of all, remember, I’m on your side, for the most part. As far as liberals go, I am one of the few with the cajonés to stand up for Israel.

That said, I want to stand by my earlier point and include what was edited out when you quoted me: The fact is there are Israelis and Palestians who recognize the simple solution when two peoples want the same land: a two state solution. The fact is it is extremists on both sides who think they have a divine claim to the land that are prolonging this conflict.

To which you disagree; you write:

A two state solution has always been supported by the Israelis.  The problem is the Arabs.  They are not interested in peace.

Again, not to disagree, but I want to take a stand that the issue in Israel isn’t so simple as Israelis good, Arabs bad. It isn’t simple. To be sure, like I wrote, there are Israelis who want peace. And there are also fundamentalist Zionists who think it is their Jewish duty to settle on contested land or drive all non-Jews from Israel, just like there are Palestinians who want all Jews out of Israel. And the reason for this? Again, like I said: Religion. You throw away the temple or the fact that Jerusaelm is where Mohammed acsended to heaven and all that other nonsense, the situation in Israel is nowhere near as incinidiery as it is today.

I am a friend of Israel and want to see that country prosper. But I can say that and also believe the Palestinians got a bad deal. Remember, it isn’t them but the Ottoman Turks who sided with Germany in the first World War. Why are the Palestinians being punished for? What crime did they commit? It seems to me that these nomadic Arab folk just so happened to be in the wrong coastal strip of the Mediterranean when Israel was drawn on the map, despite not existing for almost two millennia.

You are correct, that the Palestinian people were failed by their leadership in the late 1940s just as they are being failed now by Hamas. They are being led astray by the same thing that plagues the Zionist movement: The all-or-nothing mentality fostered by those with a delusion that god is on their side and wants them to have the land.

If the fault is anywhere, the fault is with religion. Not the Israelis. Not the Palestinians. But the faiths of these two peoples putting them at loggerheads.

Peace,
M.

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Posted: 09 November 2007 07:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Bokonon - 08 November 2007 11:53 PM

Prubilus, thank you for your well thought out reply.

Thank you for yours.  (Apologies for editing you post, but there are space constraints.)

That said, I want to stand by my earlier point and include what was edited out when you quoted me: The fact is there are Israelis and Palestians who recognize the simple solution when two peoples want the same land: a two state solution. The fact is it is extremists on both sides who think they have a divine claim to the land that are prolonging this conflict.

To which you disagree; you write:

A two state solution has always been supported by the Israelis.  The problem is the Arabs.  They are not interested in peace.

Again, not to disagree, but I want to take a stand that the issue in Israel isn’t so simple as Israelis good, Arabs bad. It isn’t simple. To be sure, like I wrote, there are Israelis who want peace. And there are also fundamentalist Zionists who think it is their Jewish duty to settle on contested land or drive all non-Jews from Israel, just like there are Palestinians who want all Jews out of Israel. And the reason for this? Again, like I said: Religion. You throw away the temple or the fact that Jerusaelm is where Mohammed acsended to heaven and all that other nonsense, the situation in Israel is nowhere near as incinidiery as it is today.

There is a profound difference between so-called Jewish extremists and Islamic extremists.  Jewish extremism—to the extent that’s really an apt characterization at all—extends only to the river Jordan.  It goes no further.  Contrary to bizarre claims of world government, Zionism is profoundly and deeply connected with one tiny plot of land that about the size of Delaware.  To equate religious extremists in the way that you’ve done is a form of moral equivalence.  Palestinian extremism refuses to recognize Israel’s right to exist.  Arab man speak with forked tongue.  In English, the so-called moderates say they want peace, while in Arabic they continue to talk about driving the Jews into the sea.  The problem is not religion per se, but Islamism.  And while not all Muslims are Islamists, all Islamists are Muslim.  Islamism can only view Israel from the theological-juridical framework of jihad:  there is the house of Islam, the house of War, and those who are in a temporary truce.  And truces can only ever be temporary.

In this regard, you dodge the all important point I made concerning Gaza.  If they were interested in peace, then why are they firing rockets after the unilateral withdrawal?

I am a friend of Israel and want to see that country prosper. But I can say that and also believe the Palestinians got a bad deal. Remember, it isn’t them but the Ottoman Turks who sided with Germany in the first World War. Why are the Palestinians being punished for? What crime did they commit? It seems to me that these nomadic Arab folk just so happened to be in the wrong coastal strip of the Mediterranean when Israel was drawn on the map, despite not existing for almost two millennia.

There was no such people known as “Palestinian” prior to 1967.  This is fiction that you and too many others have bought in to.  They were all part of the Ottoman Empire, and it is the memory of this imperial legacy that in part spurs them on.  (“Turk” is originally a Western term, like Moore, used to denote Muslims.  In Turkey today, a Turk is always a Muslim.  Non-muslims in Turkey are not Turks, they are Turkish citizens.)  You cannot separate Arabs in the middle-east from the imperial history of the Ottoman Sultanate (lit:  the Lord of Lords). 

As for the crime they committed or that was committed against them:  The first crime was committed by Jordan and Egypt after 1967, when they initiated a war and then subsequently refused to let their Arab brothers into their country, preferring instead to keep them in refugee status.  The crime the “Palestinians” commit:  blowing up women and children and firing kassam rockets into Sderot.  Israel is an excuse for the Arabs to abuse their own people, and convenient rallying point so that they ignore their own social problems.  Consider the Palestinians in Lebanon, they are second class citizens.  Arabs in Israel have more rights than anywhere else in the Arab world.

They are being led astray by the same thing that plagues the Zionist movement: The all-or-nothing mentality fostered by those with a delusion that god is on their side and wants them to have the land.

Again, there were no such beings as Palestinians prior to 67.  But I might say a similar thing to you.  You probably labor under the “delusion” that your house is really yours.  And if someone took it from you, or expropriated it, even after many years I trust you would still believe it was yours.  It’s very typical to encounter this idea among atheists that everyone else has an all or nothing mentality, which is false.  The majority of Israelis support a two state solution.  What is not negotiable is Jerusalem.  On the other hand, Ehud Barak agreed to nevertheless turn over East Jerusalem, when the two sides met during the Clinton years.  Arafat threw the deal back in his face.  It would be unthinkable that non-Muslims demand the right to have Mecca and Medina.  It should be the same with regard to Jerusalem:  it belongs to the Jews.  It’s not the like the Jews are making up a claim here.  That really is where the Temple was, and where the Western Wall is.  Moreover, during the Arab control over the Temple Mount prior to 67, Jews were denied access to the Wall.  Under Israeli control, Muslims control the Dome of the Rock.

[continued into next post]

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Posted: 09 November 2007 09:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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If the fault is anywhere, the fault is with religion. Not the Israelis. Not the Palestinians. But the faiths of these two peoples putting them at loggerheads.

This is far too simplist - and a bit like assuming that the conflict in northern Ireland was really continued fighting over the reformation.  But the view is far too simplistic, not only in a historical sense, but also in a conceptual sense.  It amounts to wishing that people didn’t really have different interests, and then concluding that if only they didn’t actually have different interests there wouldn’t be any conflict.  This sort of view is the foundation of totalitarian ideologies.  Communism, more than any other, ideology posited this.  It posited that man had only one true interest:  his capacity for freely, cooperative labor.  And Lenin, Stalin, and Mao tried to make it a reality.  Divergent interests is the natural consequence of reason under reasonably favorable conditions, and religion and interests in land are no different.  Of course, when you try to wish away divergent interests in this way, that which makes us individuals, you often wind up with something far worse.

The problem is not religion.  The problem is the lack of liberalism (in the classic sense).  But the side that suffers from a lack of liberalism isn’t Israel.

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Posted: 09 November 2007 03:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Okay, you all have been brainwashed by YEARS of propaganda and public relations by the Zionist movement and by the fascist American Empire that grants them immunity and funnels billions of dollars in “defense aid” (see: aggressive military attacks) towards their cause.

Evidence to support my claim:

http://www.ifamericansonlyknew.org  (please visit this site)

Peace, Propaganda and the Promised Land:
http://tinyurl.com/2duqjv

In the Torah, it states that the Jews were exciled BY GOD from the “Holy Land” of Jerusalem - never to return - ESPECIALLY, if the land was occupied.

In the early 1900s the British parliament set aside 6,000 square miles of largely uninhabited Uganda for the creation of an “Israeli/Zionist” state. The Zionists didn’t agree, because Baron Edmund de Rothschild had been setting up settlements (in preperation for their Balfour Declaration) in Palestine, so that they may take control of the Suez Canal and further emplor their geopolitical control across the region and the globe.

THE ZIONISTS HAVE NO RIGHT TO BE IN PALESTINE. THE ONLY TWO-STATE MODEL THAT WOULD BE HUMANE WOULD BE TO RETURN ISRAEL TO ITS PRE-1967 BORDERS, OF WHICH THEY WOULD NEVER COMPLY.

ISRAEL IS THE AGGRESSOR HERE. THE ZIONISTS ARE EVIL - NOT THE ARABS.

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Posted: 09 November 2007 05:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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Publius - 09 November 2007 02:29 PM

The problem is not religion.  The problem is the lack of liberalism (in the classic sense).  But the side that suffers from a lack of liberalism isn’t Israel.

While I still think religion is a big part of the problem and that Israel isn’t exempt, I will grant you that a lack of liberalism in the Arab world is a big part of the problem and one of the reasons I am on Israel’s side.

Am I being simplistic? Maybe. But I think if you take religion out of the picture it would be a lot easier for the two sides to come together and work something out.

Most the the Israelis I’ve met are atheists and willing to compromise with the Palestinians. At least they were. My friend Yohai in Rehevot wants Israel to keep the West Bank out of spite. He will never forgive the Palestinians for the murder of his sister.

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