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Panpsychism
Posted: 18 February 2008 02:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 76 ]  
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AtheEisegete - 18 February 2008 03:37 PM

Well, sensing an incrementally raised, albeit still infinitesimal, probability of sensual fulfillment here I’m now hanging on your every word, so of course I have to say it was addressed rather selectively to a lady with a name redolent of sultry promise whose attributes and perfections are less known to me than those of a princess beneath the fullest and blackest hijab, just a pair of eyes twinkling with amusement.

All this, dear readers of all persuasions and genders, is indicative of human psychology at its most atavistic. It suggests all too clearly the extremity to which one may be driven by seeking too earnestly to follow the wise advice of Mahatma Gandhi. More yet, it tends to confirm the veracity of the protestations of romantic love contained in the sublime poetry of Rumi, and suggest the pinnacle of yearning for God to which Jesus in all his innocence was driven. Psychology thus extremized can seem to move reality itself.

Which brings me back to panpsychism. When reality moves, it does so in consciousness dilated to transhuman extremes, from which it is but a bagatelle to perform the induction to infinity and say all is mind, reposing for the most part in deep, deep sleep, waiting for her panpsychic lover to kiss her awake.

AMO ERGO PANPSYCHE EST!

My dear fellow posters,

I would now like to ask for a moment of silence for the extinction of the Haustellum brandaris. It would seem that AtheEisegete’s prose was so purple, that it resulted in the simultaneous demise of every last one of these mollusk, used in ancient times to produce purple dye.

 

(And to GAD, an apology. Maybe it was the anti-histamines I’m on, but I mistakenly read your first two post as a defense of mystical thinking. Sorry for misdirected rant that resulted. red face )

[ Edited: 18 February 2008 02:08 PM by Celsus]
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Posted: 18 February 2008 08:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 77 ]  
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AtheEisegete - 15 February 2008 02:25 PM

OK, guys, sharpen up and test your wits against grandmaster AtheE!

So do you want me to try and dredge up my story about Alexander Cockburn or not?

[ Edited: 18 February 2008 08:39 PM by M is for Malapert]
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Posted: 18 February 2008 09:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 78 ]  
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M is for Malapert - 19 February 2008 01:37 AM

So do you want me to try and dredge up my story about Alexander Cockburn or not?

OK, go for it. But it better be good—I just checked him in Wikipedia and I can’t imagine his having anything much to say about panpsychism.

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Posted: 19 February 2008 12:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 79 ]  
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AtheEisegete - 18 February 2008 03:37 PM
SumonaB - 18 February 2008 06:16 AM

Your witty and interesting post amuses me. To do full justice in responding to it I need to know if the invitation at the beginning was addressed to females in general.

Well, sensing an incrementally raised, albeit still infinitesimal, probability of sensual fulfillment here I’m now hanging on your every word, so of course I have to say it was addressed rather selectively to a lady with a name redolent of sultry promise whose attributes and perfections are less known to me than those of a princess beneath the fullest and blackest hijab, just a pair of eyes twinkling with amusement.

All this, dear readers of all persuasions and genders, is indicative of human psychology at its most atavistic. It suggests all too clearly the extremity to which one may be driven by seeking too earnestly to follow the wise advice of Mahatma Gandhi. More yet, it tends to confirm the veracity of the protestations of romantic love contained in the sublime poetry of Rumi, and suggest the pinnacle of yearning for God to which Jesus in all his innocence was driven. Psychology thus extremized can seem to move reality itself.

Which brings me back to panpsychism. When reality moves, it does so in consciousness dilated to transhuman extremes, from which it is but a bagatelle to perform the induction to infinity and say all is mind, reposing for the most part in deep, deep sleep, waiting for her panpsychic lover to kiss her awake.

AMO ERGO PANPSYCHE EST!

You sound more and more like Prince Charming. With my eyes twinkling with amusement I popped over to The Washington Post Sam Harris blog following GAD’s lead of 15 Feb 08 3:16 PM. Your interesting exchanges with Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia and LindaJean, US of A intrigued me. Do tell me more so that I have everything in the right perspective before I venture to reveal more. Hanging on your every word, with my eyes still twinkling…

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Posted: 19 February 2008 02:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 80 ]  
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SumonaB - 19 February 2008 05:16 AM

You sound more and more like Prince Charming. With my eyes twinkling with amusement I popped over to The Washington Post Sam Harris blog following GAD’s lead of 15 Feb 08 3:16 PM. Your interesting exchanges with Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia and LindaJean, US of A intrigued me. Do tell me more so that I have everything in the right perspective before I venture to reveal more. Hanging on your every word, with my eyes still twinkling…

Should we hang up a “Do not disturb” placard on this thread so that you two can continue your grotesque courtship in private?

People, please! Children may be watching!

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Posted: 19 February 2008 12:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 81 ]  
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SumonaB - 19 February 2008 05:16 AM
AtheEisegete - 18 February 2008 03:37 PM

AMO ERGO PANPSYCHE EST!

You sound more and more like Prince Charming. With my eyes twinkling with amusement I popped over to The Washington Post Sam Harris blog following GAD’s lead of 15 Feb 08 3:16 PM. Your interesting exchanges with Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia and LindaJean, US of A intrigued me. Do tell me more so that I have everything in the right perspective before I venture to reveal more. Hanging on your every word, with my eyes still twinkling…

Yesterday I added a brooding and oppressive page to my website on nuclear armageddon. Today I added a page entitled: If music be the food of love, play on!

But let us not forget the admonition “People, please! Children may be watching!”

Blogging is a hazardous enterprise. So much can go wrong, so many misunderstandings can be kindled. For example, my ambition to initiate a serious philosophical dialog on the logic, physics and psychology of mindworlds seems sorely out of place in this forum filled with wise guys, always ready with a witty crack to deflate the ego of a wannabe soothsayer.

Beta minus ... what’s an alpha male to do? Humble greetings to Nhoj, my nemesis in put-downs. As it happens, I recently graded one of the directors in my giant global company with beta minus. He made a little video and it was underwhelming. Let this be my punishment for this minor act of hubris.

Panpsychism ... come on, guys, light my fire.

[ Edited: 21 February 2008 10:14 AM by AtheEisegete]
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Posted: 19 February 2008 03:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 82 ]  
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AtheEisegete - 19 February 2008 02:28 AM
M is for Malapert - 19 February 2008 01:37 AM

So do you want me to try and dredge up my story about Alexander Cockburn or not?

OK, go for it. But it better be good—I just checked him in Wikipedia and I can’t imagine his having anything much to say about panpsychism.

Why would he have anything to say about panpsychism?

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Posted: 20 February 2008 12:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 83 ]  
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AtheEisegete - 19 February 2008 05:14 PM
SumonaB - 19 February 2008 05:16 AM
AtheEisegete - 18 February 2008 03:37 PM

AMO ERGO PANPSYCHE EST!

You sound more and more like Prince Charming. With my eyes twinkling with amusement I popped over to The Washington Post Sam Harris blog following GAD’s lead of 15 Feb 08 3:16 PM. Your interesting exchanges with Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia and LindaJean, US of A intrigued me. Do tell me more so that I have everything in the right perspective before I venture to reveal more. Hanging on your every word, with my eyes still twinkling…

Calloo, callay, o frabjous day!!!

Yesterday I added a brooding and oppressive page to my website on nuclear armageddon. Today I added a page entitled: If music be the food of love, play on!

But let us not forget the admonition “People, please! Children may be watching!”

Blogging is a hazardous enterprise. So much can go wrong, so many misunderstandings can be kindled. For example, my ambition to initiate a serious philosophical dialog on the logic, physics and psychology of mindworlds seems sorely out of place in this forum filled with wise guys, always ready with a witty crack to deflate the ego of a wannabe soothsayer.

Beta minus ... what’s an alpha male to do? Humble greetings to Nhoj, my nemesis in put-downs. As it happens, I recently graded one of the directors in my giant global company with beta minus. He made a little video and it was underwhelming. Let this be my punishment for this minor act of hubris.

Panpsychism ... come on, guys, light my fire.

If your post was Greek or Chinese, sorry I don’t understand both languages. I take your posts with a sack or two of salt. Meanwhile my young husband, whom I married for romantic love, has advised me to read the Ramayana everyday for he loves me as Rama does. He thinks I need to be reminded repeatedly of the sacredness of marriage in the Indian culture.

It is true so much can go wrong, so many misunderstandings can be kindled.

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Posted: 20 February 2008 04:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 84 ]  
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Andy-
I am not your nemesis. Think of me as one of the Harris summer camp counselors. Your ambitions are not out of place here. You might discover how to talk to a broader audience than your usual surroundings. We would love to debate you if it didn’t require a stepladder and a spatula to find you.

I’m starting from zero with panpsychism. I’m cool with the notion of everything having an awareness that is appropriate to its nature but that seems to do little to shed light on the human mind. From what pool does this awareness arise from? Or is it so idiosyncratic as to make its existence functionally irrelevant to us?

One minute you are casually referring to Jesus (at a atheist web site?) and the next minute to EM fields and then hold on, you’re off to play the grand piano. This is all lots of fun. If you search the archives, you will find lots of wannabe soothsayers. Bring a putty knife. Incoherence is as incoherence… is.

My own attention has been on the other end of the temporal spectrum of mental stuff. Perhaps we will meet in the middle.

Did you want to sharpen those bicuspids or did you want to gum some marshmallows?

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Posted: 20 February 2008 11:27 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 85 ]  
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SumonaB - 20 February 2008 05:52 AM

It is true so much can go wrong, so many misunderstandings can be kindled.

Now really, that was a little cruel.

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Posted: 20 February 2008 11:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 86 ]  
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SumonaB - 20 February 2008 05:52 AM

If your post was Greek or Chinese, sorry I don’t understand both languages. I take your posts with a sack or two of salt.

Soja, Du alte Lügnerin! Alles Augenwischerei!

But fun, and thanks for that. For a moment there it was like a Shakespeare romance, or rather bedroom farce, with me waxing eloquent to the masked beloved.

Seriously, I’m past the age where I’m likely to do much harm to a sultry young princess (other than get her pregnant perhaps, and that would be by mutual consent, therefore not harm by definition). As for Rama, I have high esteem for all such romantic tosh (or soft margarine, as I’m sure you recall Rama is here in Germany). I’ve seen enough Bollywood flimflam to get your message and reflected long enough on the virtues of monogamy to respect it, wherever it rears its glorious godhead.

As for you, why haven’t you crashed and burned yet? What possible reason could big G have for saving you from suttee? Not to stalk me, I hope!

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Posted: 20 February 2008 12:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 87 ]  
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Nhoj Morley - 20 February 2008 09:49 AM

I am not your nemesis. ...

I’m starting from zero with panpsychism. I’m cool with the notion of everything having an awareness that is appropriate to its nature but that seems to do little to shed light on the human mind. From what pool does this awareness arise from? Or is it so idiosyncratic as to make its existence functionally irrelevant to us?

Sorry, just hamming it up for my old sparring partner Soja, the Indo-Australian witch doctor.

Panpsychism is hard to make rational sense of, I must admit. Kids often experience a primitive animism where even furniture can have a looming presence like the Ents in Lord of the Rings, and passionately idealistic lovers can sense the presence of the beloved behind just about any mask, even a desert landscape, so there are imaginative handles to grasp that are more than straws, I think.

Rationally, I have to start with logic, where I have such a technical head start I have to go as if on eggshells. Think of reality as having two levels, one below us and one above us. Below us is a domain of objects, which we’re so used to that we see it in pretty sharp focus and know our way around in it and tend to think it’s the only reality. Above us only sky ... no, precisely not. And not just “God” either. But a domain that in our fallen state we can only grope at with such metaphors. Here I mean “fallen” not only with angel-out-of-heaven overtones but also with the resonance of Martin Heidegger‘s Geworfenheit (literally “thrownness”), which he coined to suggest the way we seem to have been thrown into the world (not just squeezed out of a womb, but that image is good here) and seem doomed to make the best we can of it. Here we are, in reality, almost drowning in it, and with only the Shining, the sky, G-d, the wavefunctional domain of all possible futures superposed in virtuality, or whatever, above us.

Logically, this is the contrast between particulars and universals, as reflected in the linguistic contrast between subjects and predicates in sentences. The subject term in a sentence denotes an object or a configuration of objects, and the predicate term qualifes it, or says something about it, or (as Gottlob Frege put it) asserts that it “falls under” a concept, or in my own jargon, imposes a further determination upon it. My drift is that all objects are determined up to some level. They have properties and so on. But there is always room for more, and when we say something about them we indicate or explicate or contribute further determinacy. The informativeness of an informative sentence is precisely that additional determinacy.

The movement from the initial state of determinacy presupposed or denoted by an informative sentence to the final state, where the additional determinacy is now posited as inhering in the previously only initially determined state of affairs, is a fact, in what I hope is something like Ludwig Wittgenstein‘s sense (as stated with oracular brevity in the early propositions of his Tractatus Logico-Philosophicus). To assert a fact, as he said, is to point to the existence of a state of affairs. He also said the world is the totality of facts. In my gloss, a mindworld is a totality of facts. I have relativized and dynamized Wittgenstein’s picture in order to conform it to Kripkean logic (Saul Kripke, you may recall, revolutionized modal logic a couple of decades ago).

So, it takes two to tango. A fact is a movement between two states, an initial state characterized as a particular in a factual proposition and a final state further characterized by means of a universal in the proposition. This is a move between two adjacent levels in an ontology that can be modeled in axiomatic set theory (sorry, folks). The move represents an epistemic advance. I see the movement as part of an epistemo-ontic process by which reality grows like a huge blooming plant. We humans are tiny points on top of this plant, growing with it. If we are little godheads, the huge plant is a massive one. If we are conscious, it is superduperhyperconscious.

This may or may not have resonances with such works as those of New Age physicist Amit Goswami and other thinkers from the Hindu tradition who find it obvious that the entire universe is a ocean of consciousness.

Pause for breath.

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Posted: 21 February 2008 12:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 88 ]  
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AtheEisegete - 20 February 2008 04:49 PM
SumonaB - 20 February 2008 05:52 AM

If your post was Greek or Chinese, sorry I don’t understand both languages. I take your posts with a sack or two of salt.

Soja, Du alte Lügnerin! Alles Augenwischerei!

But fun, and thanks for that. For a moment there it was like a Shakespeare romance, or rather bedroom farce, with me waxing eloquent to the masked beloved.

Seriously, I’m past the age where I’m likely to do much harm to a sultry young princess (other than get her pregnant perhaps, and that would be by mutual consent, therefore not harm by definition). As for Rama, I have high esteem for all such romantic tosh (or soft margarine, as I’m sure you recall Rama is here in Germany). I’ve seen enough Bollywood flimflam to get your message and reflected long enough on the virtues of monogamy to respect it, wherever it rears its glorious godhead.

As for you, why haven’t you crashed and burned yet? What possible reason could big G have for saving you from suttee? Not to stalk me, I hope!

To Nhoj Morley 20 February 2008 1:38 PM: “Sorry, just hamming it up for my old sparring partner Soja, the Indo-Australian witch doctor.”

Do be very careful about hurling personal insults like that on a public forum without knowing whom it is addressed to. It should be beneath your dignity. The insults are definitely undeserved. Reading your exchanges with Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia on The Washington Post Sam Harris blog it turns out she is forty eight years old. At fifty eight you are past the age to call someone ten years younger than you - old.

[ Edited: 21 February 2008 01:33 AM by SumonaB]
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Posted: 21 February 2008 10:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 89 ]  
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SumonaB - 21 February 2008 05:11 AM

Do be very careful about hurling personal insults like that on a public forum without knowing whom it is addressed to. It should be beneath your dignity. The insults are definitely undeserved. Reading your exchanges with Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia on The Washington Post Sam Harris blog it turns out she is forty eight years old. At fifty eight you are past the age to call someone ten years younger than you - old.

Thou art unmasked. Prithee surrender. It is no insult to call you old. It is a great honor to be old and wise. As for burning, as a widow with such views on monogamy you have nothing greater to live for than union with big G.

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Posted: 22 February 2008 02:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 90 ]  
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AtheEisegete - 20 February 2008 12:49 PM

Soja, Du alte Lügnerin! Alles Augenwischerei!

But fun, and thanks for that. For a moment there it was like a Shakespeare romance, or rather bedroom farce, with me waxing eloquent to the masked beloved.

Seriously, I’m past the age where I’m likely to do much harm to a sultry young princess (other than get her pregnant perhaps, and that would be by mutual consent, therefore not harm by definition). As for Rama, I have high esteem for all such romantic tosh (or soft margarine, as I’m sure you recall Rama is here in Germany). I’ve seen enough Bollywood flimflam to get your message and reflected long enough on the virtues of monogamy to respect it, wherever it rears its glorious godhead.

As for you, why haven’t you crashed and burned yet? What possible reason could big G have for saving you from suttee? Not to stalk me, I hope!

 

AtheEisegete - 21 February 2008 03:26 PM
SumonaB - 21 February 2008 05:11 AM

Do be very careful about hurling personal insults like that on a public forum without knowing whom it is addressed to. It should be beneath your dignity. The insults are definitely undeserved. Reading your exchanges with Soja John Thaikattil, Sydney, Australia on The Washington Post Sam Harris blog it turns out she is forty eight years old. At fifty eight you are past the age to call someone ten years younger than you - old.

Thou art unmasked. Prithee surrender. It is no insult to call you old. It is a great honor to be old and wise. As for burning, as a widow with such views on monogamy you have nothing greater to live for than union with big G.

If Andy Ross = AtheEisegete,

Why is Sumina = SumonaB?

Does it follow then SumonaB = y?

Can SumonaB = Sumina + y?

Can SumonaB = Sumina or y?

Can SumonaB = Sumina - y?

Does it follow -

y = Shakespeare?

y = Du alte Luegnerin (You old liar)?

y = Alles Augenwischerei (Everything is a bluff)?

Is “you old liar” = you honorable wise old woman?

Is soft margarine Rama in Germany = Dumb German husbands and Indian husbands (or wives alone) living in Germany who have seductive unfaithful wives?

Logic ? ? ?

[ Edited: 22 February 2008 02:39 AM by SumonaB]
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