Sam Harris

Guest wrote:
You pasted something form a website, whcih includes hadith by Bukhari, Ishaq, Tabri . My interest here as you know was specific verses form the Qur’an. So,lets follow the rules of engagement.

Secondly, I will start with individual verses in your post, starting with the very first verse from the Qur’an that you pasted is from Surah (Chapter) 2 , verse 3 191. But my friend you have made the same mistake again, reading it out of context and the writer is practicing willful deception by ingoning the 2:190 and 2:192.

Please read and please respond to it directly before we go to other verses in your post.

Why does Hadith get a free pass for examination?  Hadith is supposed to be the words of Muhammed.  I am not actually purposefully ignoring 2:190 and 2:192.  I can examine them.

[QUR’AN 2:190] Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

Guest, the way I see it your inclusion of Pooya/Ali Commentary is Muslim apologetics or explanations set up to make the words of Muhammed seem or appear user friendly when in reality the sayings of your founding prophet are less than that.  I concede to context but that won’t negate the brutality of the brutal parts of the writ.

[Pooya/Ali Commentary 2:190]

The message of Islam is universal. From early times the Muslims were only permitted to fight in self defence. When there is no option, and in the face of persecution, however, the Muslims must fight.

Noggin comments: Like when Muslims attempted to forceably expand their influence and religion in Africa and Europe starting in the 8th cenury? Fighting wars over land and resources in Spain and attempting to occcupy France?  There was no option?  Was it not greed that pushed the Muslim off to conquer other lands?  They couldn’t just retreat? and not try to occupy?  How does one consider the expansion of Muslim influence by force a form of self-defense?  Muslim expansion led to slaughter in war.  The barbaric mandates in the Qur’an and Hadith delineates how a mulsim should behave to further the Muslim faith in expansion and occupation.

And Muslims fighting “in the face of persecution” is relative.  Kind of like how the Mormons in 1840 were “persecuted” by the Missourians and driven out of Nauvoo, Illinois when in reality the Mormons were attempting a subtle version of a theocratic hostile takeover and the Missourians would have none of that.  So of course, the Mormons now tell the story that THEY were persecuted.  That is utter bullshit.

The strength of Islam lies in its certainty of ultimate victory over aggression, transgression, and ascribing falsehood to Allah and His last prophet.

Guest, anything in the Koran is defensible?  If one is willing to do the mental gymnastics.  Yes.  Every religion has this problem.  Most political platform has this problem.  It is a universal difficulty with any ideology.

We cannot remain intellectually honest and simultaneously reject the idea that the Muslim history is not full of brutality relating to hostile Muslim occupation attempts of other nations.

Noggin

Why does Hadith get a free pass for examination? Hadith is supposed to be the words of Muhammed.

Please read.

[ Al-Hadith ]

[ What is Hadith ]

Noggin wrote:

Hello Guest. I posted only a few quickies. Thank you kindly for the context. However, the Muslim holy writ is chalk full of gruesomeness. Ready? Okay:

Qur’an 2:191 “And kill them wherever you find and catch them. Drive them out from where they have turned you out; for Al-Fitnah (polytheism, disbelief, oppression) is worse than slaughter.”

My interest here as you know was specific verses form the Qur’an.

Starting with the very first verse from the Qur’an that you pasted is from Surah (Chapter) 2 , verse 3 191. But my friend you have made the same mistake again, reading it out of context and the writer is practicing willful deception by ingoning the 2:190 and 2:192.

[QUR’AN 2:190] Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

[QUR’AN 2:191] And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

[QUR’AN 2:192] But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

[ QUR’AN ]

[quote author=“Rod”]When Islam finally takes over the world, how can I as an outspoken infidel expect to be treated?

Rod

FYI:

[ Letter #53 ]

[  Nahjul Balagha ]

[quote author=“Guest”][
Starting with the very first verse from the Qur’an that you pasted is from Surah (Chapter) 2 , verse 3 191. But my friend you have made the same mistake again, reading it out of context and the writer is practicing willful deception by ingoning the 2:190 and 2:192.

[QUR’AN 2:190] Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not aggressors.

[QUR’AN 2:191] And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there) then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers.

[QUR’AN 2:192] But if they desist, then lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

And you, guest, ignore my point again.  Why were the muslims engaged in war in the first place?  “Fight… those who FIGHT against you”.  e.g.  Fight those who resist giving you their lands that Allah has decreed are rightfully yours, FIGHT those who do not wish to embrace Islam.  Why were the Muslims being attacked at their inviolable place of worship (Mosques)?  Because Islam was overextending itself in their attempt to expand their empire.  Most people do not appreciate having their mode of worship forced upon them.

Islam expanded forcefully.  You cannot deny this.  Hell, even today it is a religion of butchery from the very inside.  Women are stoned to death if they speak against their elders or maimed if they show their faces or ankles.  Thieves get their hands, fingers and noses lopped off.

Please address this the next time you post here.  You have avoided it thus far.

Noggin

I guess the general perception is that violence is widely accepted in muslim culture, and even condoned in many instances.

Is there an equivalent to the Christian commandment, “Thou shall not kill”?

It seems fairly straight-forward that Christian doctrine is against violence, in general. I am not saying that they actually practice what they are taught. If there is no Islamic equivalent, then the conflict is immediately lop-sided.

[quote author=“tithulta”]I guess the general perception is that violence is widely accepted in muslim culture, and even condoned in many instances.

Is there an equivalent to the Christian commandment, “Thou shall not kill”?

It seems fairly straight-forward that Christian doctrine is against violence, in general. I am not saying that they actually practice what they are taught. If there is no Islamic equivalent, then the conflict is immediately lop-sided.

fyi:

Link: The Ten Commandments in the Quran  

———————————————————————————————————-

‘Remember, Maalik, that amongst your subjects there are two kinds of people: those who have the same religion as you have; they are brothers to you, and those who have religions other than that of yours, they are human beings like you. Men of either category suffer from the same weaknesses and disabilities that human beings are inclined to, they commit sins, indulge in vices either intentionally or foolishly and unintentionally without realizing the enormity of their deeds. Let your mercy and compassion come to their rescue and help in the same way and to the same extent that you expect Allah(God) to show mercy and forgiveness to you.”

Letter 53: An order to Maalik al-Ashtar.

[url=http://www.al-islam.org/nahjul/index.htm]  Nahjul Balagha
Sermons, Letters, and Sayings , Imam Ali ibn Abi Talib (a.s.)
[/url]

....anyone who murders any person who had not committed murder or horrendous crimes, it shall be as if he murdered all the people. (5:32)

“You shall not kill any person - for God has made life sacred - except in the course of justice. If one is killed unjustly, then we give his heir authority to enforce justice. Thus, he shall not exceed the limits in avenging the murder, he will be helped.”(17:33)

So, killing is condoned, occasionally, and even encouraged in the course of justice. I can see where leaving it up to each person’s interpretation can be dangerous.