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Posted: 12 April 2008 01:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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the Islamofascist force is prone on destroying western civilization.

True, I didn’t say it explicitly, but I meant it. I would even go further. Afghanistan and Somalia, to a certain extend also Gaza and Iraq, but also Saudi Arabia show us that the Islamists want to destroy civilisation as such because it contradicts their supernatural claims. Western civilisation beeing just the most progressive force, thanks to womens lib. and scientific advancements. But they also hate China, Russia and India.

That’s why in the public discourse we should emphasize the things we are really good at: all forms of Human cooperation besides blind submission, thanks to the guaranty of Freedom Rights. Scientific research beeing one of them.

I think the United States (I say that as a European), if it gets its act together, can play a lead role in the world to overcome those forces that want to pull humanity back in the dark ages. But this needs a huge effort, similar to the New Deal and WWII, a combination of large investments in science and education with the commitment to intervene with military force when necessary.

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Posted: 12 April 2008 01:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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Mel Olontha - 12 April 2008 05:32 PM

the Islamofascist force is prone on destroying western civilization.

True, I didn’t say it explicitly, but I meant it. I would even go further. Afghanistan and Somalia, to a certain extend also Gaza and Iraq, but also Saudi Arabia show us that the Islamists want to destroy civilisation as such because it contradicts their supernatural claims. Western civilisation beeing just the most progressive force, thanks to womens lib. and scientific advancements. But they also hate China, Russia and India.

That’s why in the public discourse we should emphasize the things we are really good at: all forms of Human cooperation besides blind submission, thanks to the guaranty of Freedom Rights. Scientific research beeing one of them.

I think the United States (I say that as a European), if it gets its act together, can play a lead role in the world to overcome those forces that want to pull humanity back in the dark ages. But this needs a huge effort, similar to the New Deal and WWII, a combination of large investments in science and education with the commitment to intervene with military force when necessary.

Yes, this latest response seems to show your understanding of the breath and depth of the problem (and not just the oil aspect of it.)  I think a lot of Americans on some level understand this and want us to take the lead after being the whipping boys of Corporate America for 8 plus years. Our complete and utter acquiescence to Bush & Co and the military industrial complex is not only embarrassing (as an American) but extremely alarming. I can only hope whoever takes the reins in 09 will have a combination of wisdom and guts. I especially agree with your last paragraph and would include “humanitarian and medical aide” in that equation. The western world has the potential for world cooperation like no other culture in the history of humankind.  What happens over the next 5-10 years may be the deciding point in its continuation or demise.

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Posted: 13 April 2008 10:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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Yes, this latest response seems to show your understanding of the breath and depth of the problem

Well, thank you, I guess.

I think a lot of Americans on some level understand this and want us to take the lead after being the whipping boys of Corporate America for 8 plus years. Our complete and utter acquiescence to Bush & Co and the military industrial complex is not only embarrassing (as an American) but extremely alarming.

After reading Stiglitz’ “Roaring Nineties” etc. I wondered why so many Americans after the crisis beginning and ending the 90ties still fell for the revival of “Reaganomics” under Bush. Must be somekind of religious thing as well: McCain switched to “market-fundamentalism” around the time he became a Baptist.
The US might be able to manage the MIC when you switch the public investments to other scientific fields, current military challenges anyway are much cheaper: helicopters are already invented, so are armed humvees. Somekind of instant translation device would be handy though. (Again political changes only get done if there are people constantly working on it: join or form lobby organisations and spam your politicians)
The most “embarassing” thing are anyway the Americans you meet in Europe that apologize for Bush all the time. Pathetic moonfaced babes who most of the time have anyway no clue of what’s going on. Anti-Americanism is the ideology of our reactionaries, leftwing as well as rightwing, you should know, somekind of an “opium of the people”.

I can only hope whoever takes the reins in 09 will have a combination of wisdom and guts. I especially agree with your last paragraph and would include “humanitarian and medical aide” in that equation.

I hope so too. Anyway I think McCains is weak on economic policy, but I like his consequence on Iraq. Something that Obama will have to revise as soon as Hillary is out of the race. You can’t leave Iraq to the Hyenas now.
On the humanitarian aid thing: I’m convinced that dropping the tariffs on agricultural products would help the development world more than all those “aid” presents currently dumped on them (mainly to salve our conciousness but also to give presents to corporations payed by taxpayers).
Some alphabetisation and birth-control campaigns could help as well, and to stop funding the missionaries.

The western world has the potential for world cooperation like no other culture in the history of humankind.  What happens over the next 5-10 years may be the deciding point in its continuation or demise.

That means to value culture again, as well as cultivation. Still my hope is the US of A. Europe is in deep decay (f.e. watch the news about Italy tomorrow).

Btw. do you know Ophelia Bensons blog http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com ? Worth reading.

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Posted: 13 April 2008 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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Mel Olontha

Well, thank you, I guess.

Sorry if that came across a bit condescending

 

Mel Olontha
The most “embarassing” thing are anyway the Americans you meet in Europe that apologize for Bush all the time. Pathetic moonfaced babes who most of the time have anyway no clue of what’s going on. Anti-Americanism is the ideology of our reactionaries, leftwing as well as rightwing, you should know, somekind of an “opium of the people”.

It is embarrassing to be an American and hear these kinds of stories.

 

Mel Olontha
I hope so too. Anyway I think McCains is weak on economic policy, but I like his consequence on Iraq. Something that Obama will have to revise as soon as Hillary is out of the race. You can’t leave Iraq to the Hyenas now.

I don’t like much of anything about MCCain. He wants us in Iraq indefinitely….

Mel Olontha
On the humanitarian aid thing: I’m convinced that dropping the tariffs on agricultural products would help the development world more than all those “aid” presents currently dumped on them (mainly to salve our conciousness but also to give presents to corporations payed by taxpayers).
Some alphabetisation and birth-control campaigns could help as well, and to stop funding the missionaries.

Good point but what is alphabetisation?


Mel Olontha
That means to value culture again, as well as cultivation. Still my hope is the US of A. Europe is in deep decay (f.e. watch the news about Italy tomorrow).

Hope is all we have.

Mel Olontha

Btw. do you know Ophelia Bensons blog http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com ? Worth reading.

Interesting.

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Posted: 13 April 2008 01:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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“It is embarrassing to be an American and hear these kinds of stories”
Don’t worry: the oldest working democratic constitution, pursuit of happiness and first amendement, as well as rock’n'roll and internet by far outdo fast food and American idiots;)

“Alphabetization” - sorry for the false translation, maybe this word does not really exist in the English language. In my mothertongue that means to teach the people how to read and write (or the A.-rate, like 95% of the population of a certain country).

On McCain: I don’t really care anymore about discussions about how this got started. I just know one thing: if the US withdraws now it’ll be worse than ever, Iran will take over and/or complete anarchy break out. The US still has bases in Europe and East Asia and that seems no problem. Why not move them in a region where they are more needed? To pacify and liberate this region seems a noble encounter and necessary to me. In this region military power is all that counts, so who else than the US can protect the weak?
I know how much hope many put in Obama now… but the comments he made on that don’t really sound thought through a lot.

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Posted: 13 April 2008 05:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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“Alphabetization” - sorry for the false translation, maybe this word does not really exist in the English language. In my mothertongue that means to teach the people how to read and write (or the A.-rate, like 95% of the population of a certain country).

I would call it “literacy”  or lack of—- “illiteracy.”

On McCain: I don’t really care anymore about discussions about how this got started. I just know one thing: if the US withdraws now it’ll be worse than ever, Iran will take over and/or complete anarchy break out. The US still has bases in Europe and East Asia and that seems no problem. Why not move them in a region where they are more needed? To pacify and liberate this region seems a noble encounter and necessary to me. In this region military power is all that counts, so who else than the US can protect the weak.


So the other option is stay the course…

I know how much hope many put in Obama now… but the comments he made on that don’t really sound thought through a lot.


That was the original problem. I don’t see anyone thinking it through.

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Posted: 14 April 2008 03:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 01 April 2008 02:25 PM
Skipshot - 01 April 2008 02:21 PM

Bruce, why limit the choices to Islam or Christianity?  Isn’t there something/anything else to protect the world from Islam?

Sure. Military superiority, which we have right now. But in a few decades, this option will no longer be on the table, and in any event, there are political and moral obstacles to its use. If you are thinking that “reason” will protect the world, watch what is going to happen to reasonable Europe in the next 20 years.

And what about muslims who are in the military?  It would be against anti-discrimination laws to prevent muslims from joining the military, but once they’re in, they can form a fifth column.

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Posted: 14 April 2008 09:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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Sure. Military superiority, which we have right now. But in a few decades, this option will no longer be on the table, and in any event, there are political and moral obstacles to its use. If you are thinking that “reason” will protect the world, watch what is going to happen to reasonable Europe in the next 20 years.

Yep, I also worry about Europe. Eurabia is calling, thanks to the appeasment politics of brainwashed multiculturalists or simply cynical people.

What has to happen is a stronger support for the democratic revolution in the muslim world. You have to start understanding that “Islamism” is a political movement, that amalgamates ancient cult with (irrational) political demands (like the caliphate-imperialism, and devout-first social action of the state). The “Muslim” as such does not exist, many are in fact as agnostic as many Christians or Jews that don’t really believe in miracles but see them as “nice stories”. Even the ones that really believe the tale of the angel in the desert are harmless as long as they don’t take the lines in their holy book seriously that tells them to discriminate and kill others. But this is are political questions.
That’s why it is such a tradgedy that “The West” is appeasing Islamism in the realm that is most vital for fighting it: free speech and the separation of temple and state.
There are many Muslims that want to life in Freedom and prosperity, they (still) look up to the USA, but only if you will not abandon them and believe the Islamists who want to dominate them.

what about muslims who are in the military?  It would be against anti-discrimination laws to prevent muslims from joining the military, but once they’re in, they can form a fifth column.

Well, NO.
Religious tests for public office are unconstitutional. But you can make a political test, if they agree to the constitution and disagree with murdering for the caliphate (thus prefer Freedom to the dictatorship of mullahs) they are ok to be in. They can even set a good example.
Germany did this with Neonazis in the armed forces: if they find out you prefer the Reich or Communism to democracy you land in jail because you lied and broke an oath.

Don’t let the Islamists fool you: they are not equal to the 1,2 billion they want to be the spokespeople for. In fact we have to deny them this right.

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Posted: 14 April 2008 11:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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I forgot:

Check out the website of the ISIS, the Institut for the Secularisation of Islamic Society:

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/isis

The St. Petersburg Declaration
April 5, 2007

We are secular Muslims, and secular persons of Muslim societies. We are believers, doubters, and unbelievers, brought together by a great struggle, not between the West and Islam, but between the free and the unfree.

We affirm the inviolable freedom of the individual conscience. We believe in the equality of all human persons.

We insist upon the separation of religion from state and the observance of universal human rights.

We find traditions of liberty, rationality, and tolerance in the rich histories of pre-Islamic and Islamic societies. These values do not belong to the West or the East; they are the common moral heritage of humankind.

We see no colonialism, racism, or so-called “Islamaphobia” in submitting Islamic practices to criticism or condemnation when they violate human reason or rights.

We call on the governments of the world to

  * reject Sharia law, fatwa courts, clerical rule, and state-sanctioned religion in all their forms; oppose all penalties for blasphemy and apostasy, in accordance with Article 18 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights;
  * eliminate practices, such as female circumcision, honor killing, forced veiling, and forced marriage, that further the oppression of women;
  * protect sexual and gender minorities from persecution and violence;
  * reform sectarian education that teaches intolerance and bigotry towards non-Muslims;
  * and foster an open public sphere in which all matters may be discussed without coercion or intimidation.

We demand the release of Islam from its captivity to the totalitarian ambitions of power-hungry men and the rigid strictures of orthodoxy.

We enjoin academics and thinkers everywhere to embark on a fearless examination of the origins and sources of Islam, and to promulgate the ideals of free scientific and spiritual inquiry through cross-cultural translation, publishing, and the mass media.

We say to Muslim believers: there is a noble future for Islam as a personal faith, not a political doctrine;

to Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Baha’is, and all members of non-Muslim faith communities: we stand with you as free and equal citizens;

and to nonbelievers: we defend your unqualified liberty to question and dissent.

Before any of us is a member of the Umma, the Body of Christ, or the Chosen People, we are all members of the community of conscience, the people who must choose for themselves.

Endorsed by:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali
Magdi Allam
Mithal Al-Alusi
Shaker Al-Nabulsi
Nonie Darwish
Afshin Ellian
Tawfik Hamid
Shahriar Kabir
Hasan Mahmud
Wafa Sultan
Amir Taheri
Ibn Warraq
Manda Zand Ervin
Banafsheh Zand-Bonazzi

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Posted: 14 April 2008 03:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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Skipshot - 02 April 2008 02:01 AM

I’m not interested in having a strongly Muslim influenced society either, however the likelihood of it happening in the US is slim, as I hoped to convey with my point about assimilation.    Assimilation has an ameliorating affect on rebellious tendencies, however I will grant this assimilation must be from both sides to be successful and that both sides should know it takes more than one generation for this to happen, and very importantly, that the outside group be willing to give up more than the native group and the native group offer more than what the outside group is losing.

Give Muslims a chance to become atheists.

Skipshot,

First of all, how are you doing?  It’s been a while.

Now to your point about not wanting a “strongly Muslim influenced society,” I would suggest that your/our society has been, and continues to be, influenced by Muslims in more ways than I think you realize.  Next time you have a sip of your morning coffee (presuming you drink coffee of course), you ought to thank God for the Muslims.

Consider here,

http://www.1001inventions.com/words/
http://www.1001inventions.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=main.viewSection&intSectionID=240

In fact, there are many good resources on the topic of Muslim influence on the modern world.  Now if only the Muslims could manage to reclaim their civilizational legacy, and indeed, they surely will in due time, the world will again feel its gracious effects.

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Posted: 15 April 2008 06:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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lindajean - 12 April 2008 12:26 PM
Mel Olontha - 12 April 2008 07:48 AM

Think more global please.

Many of you think that Islamic violence is something alien, far away. However in our globalised time the whole world is one.

Most Muslims live in areas of scarcity, especially of water, and of underdevelopment, in the sense of very low labor productivity (old machines, no science labs - lack of engineers and scientists). These societies are very easy to dominate if you figured out how to use the impoverished mob to your advantage.  This is done through the amalgamation of the traditional cult (already quite brutal) with modern political machines, hence “Islamofascism” acctually describes that well.

This happens to take place in the region of the worlds oil reserves, a resource that is still of vital importance to the world economy. Thus the people in power don’t have to work much: their revenue is save, a rising oil price as monopoly profit is a save income (check out Abu Dhabi on Google earth). They can squander around while they don’t have to worry about technical or scientific progress or any other cultivation.

You wondered about the rise of (russian-orthodox) Putin and totalitarianism in Russia? Oil, gas and the high price Europe is willing to pay for it. You wonder about why those Militias in Iraq are killing each other? Because of Religious ideology of course but also BECAUSE THEY CAN: they hope to control the land and do fine contracts with oil companies after the US withdraws, they don’t have to care for much else.

To get rid of this kind of blackmail politics by Islamic fancatics needs to get rid of the dependence on fossil fuels, to take away their economic base.

Ask your congressmen/women what they have done lately to wrench the USA of its dependency on fossil fuel. Ask the Presidential candidates over and over again to consider the Solar Grand Plan.


You don’t say it explicitly, but the Islamofascist force is prone on destroying western civilization.  We are Satan.  We can’t help but to think globally about the effect such disaster would bring to the world as we know it. Oil is a big contributing factor but the power of religious belief is a huge part of this equation. Reducing or eliminating our need for fossil fuels is certainly the most viable reactionary means we have available to disengage but it is not the complete solution.

Islam is prone on destroying Western civilization?  Well, if that’s the case you need to first do something about all those Westerners accepting Islam.  Then maybe you can worry about the third worlders and all those puppet dicatorships that the West supports.

With all due respect friend, which institution has brainwashed you?

[ Edited: 15 April 2008 06:26 PM by Jack Shooter]
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Posted: 15 April 2008 07:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Jack Shooter said: “Islam is prone on destroying Western civilization?  Well, if that’s the case you need to first do something about all those Westerners accepting Islam.  Then maybe you can worry about the third worlders and all those puppet dictorships that the West supports.”

I don’t think anyone is arguing that the West supports egregious dictators to promote profit and “democracy”.  I don’t think most people on this forum condone those acts in the least.  But I will choose to live in any Western culture over the totalitarian governments of Islam. Because at least I have some individual freedoms and civil liberties to prevent me from being forced into a marriage (at the age of 14), having my genitals mutilated or getting stoned to death for having sex outside of marriage because I’m female.

But maybe those kinds of acts don’t bother some Western men.

It is ironic that the Westerners who defend the “values” of Islam don’t appear to be flocking to their mosques, or applying for citizenship in their countries. They seem giddy at the thought of criticizing Western governments but not eager at all to live under the rule of Islam.  I wonder why that is?  Perhaps Jack can fill in that gap.

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Posted: 15 April 2008 07:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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lindajean - 15 April 2008 11:18 PM

Jack Shooter said: “Islam is prone on destroying Western civilization?  Well, if that’s the case you need to first do something about all those Westerners accepting Islam.  Then maybe you can worry about the third worlders and all those puppet dictorships that the West supports.”

I don’t think anyone is arguing that the West supports egregious dictators to promote profit and “democracy”.  I don’t think most people on this forum condone those acts in the least.

I would certainly hope not.

But I will choose to live in any Western culture over the totalitarian governments of Islam. Because at least I have some individual freedoms and civil liberties to prevent me from being forced into a marriage (at the age of 14), having my genitals mutilated or getting stoned to death for having sex outside of marriage because I’m female. But maybe those kinds of acts don’t bother some Western men.

It seems as though you may have been reading Ayan Hrsi Ali’s works or some other laypersons understanding of Islam.  In any case, you apparently don’t know much about Islamic law.  First of all, female genital mutilation has no basis in Islam whatsoever.  It is a cultural practice, plain and simple.  Secondly, forced marriages also have no Islamic sanction.  Thirdly, stonning to death for adultrey applies to the guilty man and woman, not the woman only.  So your wrong on all three counts.  I suggest you ask if you do not know.  And trust me, if you believe Ayan Hrsi Ali’s understanding of Islam to be authoritative, then clearly you do not know.

It is ironic that the Westerners who defend the “values” of Islam don’t appear to be flocking to their mosques, or applying for citizenship in their countries. They seem giddy at the thought of criticizing Western governments but not eager at all to live under the rule of Islam.  I wonder why that is?  Perhaps Jack can fill in that gap.

Actually, there are many, many Westerners who, after accepting Islam, have moved to so-called Muslim countries (so-called because many of the practices are often un-Islamic in these countries) to study Islam with Muslim scholars or simply to live in a more “Islamic enviornment” if you will.  I am sure that most practicing Muslims, American born or otherwise, would welcome the ‘rule’ of Islam anywhere.  At the same time, however, the reality is that many countries in the West are actually more “Islamic” in practice than many so-called Muslim countries, and Muslims know this very well.

[ Edited: 15 April 2008 07:41 PM by Jack Shooter]
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Posted: 16 April 2008 06:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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With all due respect friend, which institution has brainwashed you?

I’m not sure but I guess my grandfathers library. I think however that we know for sure the institution that brainwashed you: the most stupid and backward of all worldreligions: Islam and probably even one of the more radical schools.

I don’t really care if you are an Islamist or just an Islamist-appeaser that does not make a difference to me.

It seems as though you may have been reading Ayan Hrsi Ali’s works or some other laypersons understanding of Islam.

Ayaan Hirsi Alis understanding of Islam and “the rule of Islam” is quite deep and her account of it and the backwards racist and sexist culture that it protects as well as the politics it promotes in places like Somalia, Kenia, Saudi Arabia but also the Netherlands is very accurate.
Your proposal to trust only the muftis, mullahs or imams, the “experts”, that means people who did not do any honest work in their life but instead live from lying to gullible people and to perfectionate their inhumane ideology is quite ridiculus. That would mean for example not to listen to the suppressed women or other victims of this global cult. It is exactly the “laypersons” opinion we want to hear and we trust more than any of those professional ideologues.

About those converters:
There have always been pathetic losers and confused people that did not manage their life without some “spiritual” guidance (meaning somebody to tell them what they have to do, because themself inable to make up their own mind). In the best case they stayed harmless village idiots mumbling drivel, but not harming anybody. In the worst they made up the soldiers in political struggles for people that were much smarter then them.

Of course there are also the women that convert to Islam because their husband hopes to secure a place in paradise thanks to that: the one I met suffered from an abusive relationship with her father and thought submission under an husband was her call.

Anyway, there is no noble reason to convert to Islam or any other religion (or totalitarian political ideology). It is always a sign that a person cannot live without beeing told what to do.

This is indeed a problem that needs to be tackled with a better civic and scientific education, making people intellectually self reliable and able to see through the lies of supernatural claims or political demagogy.

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Posted: 17 April 2008 04:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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Mel Olontha - 16 April 2008 10:35 AM

With all due respect friend, which institution has brainwashed you?

I’m not sure but I guess my grandfathers library. I think however that we know for sure the institution that brainwashed you: the most stupid and backward of all worldreligions: Islam and probably even one of the more radical schools.

I don’t really care if you are an Islamist or just an Islamist-appeaser that does not make a difference to me.

It seems as though you may have been reading Ayan Hrsi Ali’s works or some other laypersons understanding of Islam.

Ayaan Hirsi Alis understanding of Islam and “the rule of Islam” is quite deep and her account of it and the backwards racist and sexist culture that it protects as well as the politics it promotes in places like Somalia, Kenia, Saudi Arabia but also the Netherlands is very accurate.
Your proposal to trust only the muftis, mullahs or imams, the “experts”, that means people who did not do any honest work in their life but instead live from lying to gullible people and to perfectionate their inhumane ideology is quite ridiculus. That would mean for example not to listen to the suppressed women or other victims of this global cult. It is exactly the “laypersons” opinion we want to hear and we trust more than any of those professional ideologues.

Sure, listen to the suppressed women. But listen to all of them, even the ones that understand that the suppression they face is not because of their religion, but because the people suppressing them have forgotten their religion.  Also, listen to those women who are in position of power, who feel liberated because of their religion.  Insofar as you only cite the accounts of less than a handful of individuals who obviously have derive profit from attacking Islam, your analysis is seriously flawed.

About those converters:
There have always been pathetic losers and confused people that did not manage their life without some “spiritual” guidance (meaning somebody to tell them what they have to do, because themself inable to make up their own mind). In the best case they stayed harmless village idiots mumbling drivel, but not harming anybody. In the worst they made up the soldiers in political struggles for people that were much smarter then them.

You assume that because you think you think for yourself, that somehow this makes you a superior person.  Well, some of us are at least honest enough to realize that we need to ask and follow when we clearly do not, or cannot, know for ourselves.

Of course there are also the women that convert to Islam because their husband hopes to secure a place in paradise thanks to that: the one I met suffered from an abusive relationship with her father and thought submission under an husband was her call.

Is this your explaination for why 20 000 American’s, overwhelmingly women, accept Islam in the US alone ever year?  Anyway, whatever you wrote here makes no sense.

Anyway, there is no noble reason to convert to Islam or any other religion (or totalitarian political ideology). It is always a sign that a person cannot live without beeing told what to do.

This is according to you, someone who has no clue as to what nobility is about.

This is indeed a problem that needs to be tackled with a better civic and scientific education, making people intellectually self reliable and able to see through the lies of supernatural claims or political demagogy.

If you think science will solve the “problem of religion”, you don’t understand what science is.  In the end, given your belief that you are somehow superior because you do not follow the orders of the Most High, the only point you have made is how ignorant, and arrogant you are.

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