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Ayaan Hirsi Ali on “Fitna” and the Dutch response.
Posted: 01 April 2008 12:41 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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She wrote this article in Front Page magazine today:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=A3CF09C3-6726-4A17-BA10-A208AE2C3BFA

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Posted: 01 April 2008 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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arildno - 01 April 2008 04:41 PM

She wrote this article in Front Page magazine today:
http://www.frontpagemag.com/Articles/Read.aspx?GUID=A3CF09C3-6726-4A17-BA10-A208AE2C3BFA

Thanks for the article, Arildno . As a “Front Page ” patron , however, I have already read it. I’m glad to see that someone else here tunes in to “Front Page ” because thier articles etc. are a great sourch of Islam-West , Islam- East conflict etc.,issues, and politics . As I mentioned before,the works of some of the best accademic scholars, erudite, knowledgable figures ,historians, authors, etc.on these subjects frequent this website . I know this is beginning to sound like a commercial, but “Front Page ” has a lot to offer . Gotta go-

DEE-

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Posted: 01 April 2008 04:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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” We have chosen for the Netherlands, precisely because of the freedom here. This has to be said. I miss the [Muslim] voice that distances itself from extremism.” This is the fitting reaction to the core question of Fitna.”

Two things:

Most Muslims, Turks and Moroccans, come to Holland and Europe for economic opportunity, not because they ‘love freedom’ so much.
Secondly, this guy shouldn’t be surprised that the elusive moderate Muslims are nowhere to be found.

If you believe the misogynist, barbaric bullshit that is the Koran and the Hadith then you are not a moderate.
If you don’t believe it you are an apostate who is lining up for the firing squad.

And we are wondering why we don’t hear from these people ?

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But that’s the way I like it baby, I don’t want to live forever.”

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Posted: 15 April 2008 07:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Sander - 01 April 2008 08:26 PM

” We have chosen for the Netherlands, precisely because of the freedom here. This has to be said. I miss the [Muslim] voice that distances itself from extremism.” This is the fitting reaction to the core question of Fitna.”

Two things:

Most Muslims, Turks and Moroccans, come to Holland and Europe for economic opportunity, not because they ‘love freedom’ so much.
Secondly, this guy shouldn’t be surprised that the elusive moderate Muslims are nowhere to be found.

If you believe the misogynist, barbaric bullshit that is the Koran and the Hadith then you are not a moderate.
If you don’t believe it you are an apostate who is lining up for the firing squad.

And we are wondering why we don’t hear from these people ?

Sander,

On a completely unrelated note, I’m glad to see that you’ve removed that ugly picture you had up before (presumably of yourself).  I think we that visit the forum are all better off because of this kind gesture on your part.  Thanks.

[ Edited: 15 April 2008 07:23 PM by Jack Shooter]
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Posted: 16 April 2008 12:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 15 April 2008 11:21 PM
Sander - 01 April 2008 08:26 PM

” We have chosen for the Netherlands, precisely because of the freedom here. This has to be said. I miss the [Muslim] voice that distances itself from extremism.” This is the fitting reaction to the core question of Fitna.”

Two things:

Most Muslims, Turks and Moroccans, come to Holland and Europe for economic opportunity, not because they ‘love freedom’ so much.
Secondly, this guy shouldn’t be surprised that the elusive moderate Muslims are nowhere to be found.

If you believe the misogynist, barbaric bullshit that is the Koran and the Hadith then you are not a moderate.
If you don’t believe it you are an apostate who is lining up for the firing squad.

And we are wondering why we don’t hear from these people ?

Sander,

On a completely unrelated note, I’m glad to see that you’ve removed that ugly picture you had up before (presumably of yourself).  I think we that visit the forum are all better off because of this kind gesture on your part.  Thanks.

Don’t listen to him Sander- you are quite handsome, I’m sure. You seem to be smart also…now if you were only wealthy…. No kidding Sandy, I have you figured to be a nice guy.

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Posted: 13 May 2008 11:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Dee - 16 April 2008 04:38 AM
Jack Shooter - 15 April 2008 11:21 PM
Sander - 01 April 2008 08:26 PM

” We have chosen for the Netherlands, precisely because of the freedom here. This has to be said. I miss the [Muslim] voice that distances itself from extremism.” This is the fitting reaction to the core question of Fitna.”

Two things:

Most Muslims, Turks and Moroccans, come to Holland and Europe for economic opportunity, not because they ‘love freedom’ so much.
Secondly, this guy shouldn’t be surprised that the elusive moderate Muslims are nowhere to be found.

If you believe the misogynist, barbaric bullshit that is the Koran and the Hadith then you are not a moderate.
If you don’t believe it you are an apostate who is lining up for the firing squad.

And we are wondering why we don’t hear from these people ?

Sander,

On a completely unrelated note, I’m glad to see that you’ve removed that ugly picture you had up before (presumably of yourself).  I think we that visit the forum are all better off because of this kind gesture on your part.  Thanks.

Don’t listen to him Sander- you are quite handsome, I’m sure. You seem to be smart also…now if you were only wealthy…. No kidding Sandy, I have you figured to be a nice guy.

Dee, I know they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I know your trying to be nice and all, but lets be honest.  The fact is, complementary to his ugly views, Sander is very ugly.  Just look at that picture, if you can, without throwing up.

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Posted: 14 May 2008 12:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 14 May 2008 03:01 AM
Dee - 16 April 2008 04:38 AM
Jack Shooter - 15 April 2008 11:21 PM
Sander - 01 April 2008 08:26 PM

” We have chosen for the Netherlands, precisely because of the freedom here. This has to be said. I miss the [Muslim] voice that distances itself from extremism.” This is the fitting reaction to the core question of Fitna.”

Two things:

Most Muslims, Turks and Moroccans, come to Holland and Europe for economic opportunity, not because they ‘love freedom’ so much.
Secondly, this guy shouldn’t be surprised that the elusive moderate Muslims are nowhere to be found.

If you believe the misogynist, barbaric bullshit that is the Koran and the Hadith then you are not a moderate.
If you don’t believe it you are an apostate who is lining up for the firing squad.

And we are wondering why we don’t hear from these people ?

Sander,

On a completely unrelated note, I’m glad to see that you’ve removed that ugly picture you had up before (presumably of yourself).  I think we that visit the forum are all better off because of this kind gesture on your part.  Thanks.

Don’t listen to him Sander- you are quite handsome, I’m sure. You seem to be smart also…now if you were only wealthy…. No kidding Sandy, I have you figured to be a nice guy.

Dee, I know they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I know your trying to be nice and all, but lets be honest.  The fact is, complementary to his ugly views, Sander is very ugly.  Just look at that picture, if you can, without throwing up.


Sander looks fine, and so far , IS fine with me. He seems to be a participant with principles, so keep that kind of opinion to yourself .BTW: why don’t you show a picture of yourself ?  I don’t think you’d do that—it would be too embarrassing.

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Posted: 14 May 2008 01:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Sander - 01 April 2008 08:26 PM

” We have chosen for the Netherlands, precisely because of the freedom here. This has to be said. I miss the [Muslim] voice that distances itself from extremism.” This is the fitting reaction to the core question of Fitna.”

Two things:

Most Muslims, Turks and Moroccans, come to Holland and Europe for economic opportunity, not because they ‘love freedom’ so much.
Secondly, this guy shouldn’t be surprised that the elusive moderate Muslims are nowhere to be found.

If you believe the misogynist, barbaric bullshit that is the Koran and the Hadith then you are not a moderate.
If you don’t believe it you are an apostate who is lining up for the firing squad.

And we are wondering why we don’t hear from these people ?

You are right about that Sander, and don’t forget—that one of the reasons Muslims have made such progress in Holland is because the Dutch government, and society have been so tolerant, passive and generous. If what I’ve read about the Netherlands is true , It has quite benevolent people . Let this be a lesson to us : there is such a thing as too much trust; too much accommodateing . A certain type of people take advantage of that instead of appreciating it . Muslims , including thier religious lifestyle , will take as much as they are allowed to, even if it means impossing on the host country by insisting on having thier own rules and threatening harm if they aren’t accepted that way. It is time for the Dutch to get tough.
  I also agree that the so-called “moderate ” Muslim is really not moderate if she/he believes and follows the Koran and Hadith .
And about thier quest for “freedom ” : it is highly ironic that they seek out a place where they can feel free to do the things they can’t do at home, yet when they reach that haven of freedom they go right back to thier religion and it’s demands. They go out into the streets and shoot off thier mouths praising Islam and complaining about whatever country they set up housekeeping in ,while they don’t seem to realize they can only get away with that behavior because they are not in thier Muslim country . Bastard hypocrites .

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Posted: 14 May 2008 01:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Dee - 14 May 2008 04:26 AM
Jack Shooter - 14 May 2008 03:01 AM
Dee - 16 April 2008 04:38 AM
Jack Shooter - 15 April 2008 11:21 PM
Sander - 01 April 2008 08:26 PM

” We have chosen for the Netherlands, precisely because of the freedom here. This has to be said. I miss the [Muslim] voice that distances itself from extremism.” This is the fitting reaction to the core question of Fitna.”

Two things:

Most Muslims, Turks and Moroccans, come to Holland and Europe for economic opportunity, not because they ‘love freedom’ so much.
Secondly, this guy shouldn’t be surprised that the elusive moderate Muslims are nowhere to be found.

If you believe the misogynist, barbaric bullshit that is the Koran and the Hadith then you are not a moderate.
If you don’t believe it you are an apostate who is lining up for the firing squad.

And we are wondering why we don’t hear from these people ?

Sander,

On a completely unrelated note, I’m glad to see that you’ve removed that ugly picture you had up before (presumably of yourself).  I think we that visit the forum are all better off because of this kind gesture on your part.  Thanks.

Don’t listen to him Sander- you are quite handsome, I’m sure. You seem to be smart also…now if you were only wealthy…. No kidding Sandy, I have you figured to be a nice guy.

Dee, I know they say beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and I know your trying to be nice and all, but lets be honest.  The fact is, complementary to his ugly views, Sander is very ugly.  Just look at that picture, if you can, without throwing up.

Sander looks fine, and so far , IS fine with me. He seems to be a participant with principles, so keep that kind of opinion to yourself .BTW: why don’t you show a picture of yourself ?  I don’t think you’d do that—it would be too embarrassing.

Lady (I’m assuming your a lady), you sound desperate.  Surely, you can do better than Sander, can’t you?  As for me, if you think Sander is good looking, you’d probably think I was a Greek god.  And so no, I’m not going to post my pic.  I’m just too sexy for this forum.  Sorry.

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Posted: 18 May 2008 12:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Lady (I’m assuming your a lady), you sound desperate.  Surely, you can do better than Sander, can’t you?  As for me, if you think Sander is good looking, you’d probably think I was a Greek god.  And so no, I’m not going to post my pic.  I’m just too sexy for this forum.  Sorry.

Who sounds desperate here?
That’s what you get when you talk to the sincere followers the violent cult of what would today be a convicted pedophile: meaningless buffonery by morally depraved hooligans under the mask of religious self-pity and self-rightousness.

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Posted: 20 May 2008 11:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Mel Olontha - 18 May 2008 04:20 PM

Lady (I’m assuming your a lady), you sound desperate.  Surely, you can do better than Sander, can’t you?  As for me, if you think Sander is good looking, you’d probably think I was a Greek god.  And so no, I’m not going to post my pic.  I’m just too sexy for this forum.  Sorry.

Who sounds desperate here?
That’s what you get when you talk to the sincere followers the violent cult of what would today be a convicted pedophile: meaningless buffonery by morally depraved hooligans under the mask of religious self-pity and self-rightousness.

I don’t know who sounds desparate, but you sure sound ignorant.  The prophet’s (peace be upon him) marriage to Aisha (may God be pleased with her) has been explained well enough such that any reasonable person can find no problem with it.  Obviously, your no such person.  I’m not going to get into the issue here, but feel free to read the other threads on the subject.

Just know that Aisha was the age of maturity when the marriage between her and the prophet (peace be upon him) was consumated.  Now, what is wrong with a forty year old + man consumating a marriage with a female who has reached the age of maturity (i.e. puberty) from your “enlightened” perspective?

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Posted: 23 May 2008 04:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Now how old was Aisha when Muhammed married her?  Was it 9 or something?  I should know this as an ex-Muslim.  I guess the fact that I don’t says something about what kind of “Muslim” I was, huh?

[edit]

Ok nevermind, I just looked it up and apparently the little girl was indeed nine.  So Jack-off, you’re saying that a grown man marrying (and presumably having sex with) a nine year old is somehow not grotesque to you…?

Are you a pedophile yourself?  How could you possibly not find this revolting?  Would you like to get yourself a nice little pure 9 year old bride? 

You disgust me.

[ Edited: 23 May 2008 04:48 PM by matriculated01]
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Posted: 27 May 2008 06:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Just know that Aisha was the age of maturity when the marriage between her and the prophet (peace be upon him) was consumated.  Now, what is wrong with a forty year old + man consumating a marriage with a female who has reached the age of maturity (i.e. puberty) from your “enlightened” perspective?

That’s the whole point, no? What use are “revelations” from the iron age when children were forced to marry old men? How moral is it today to follow the rules of those primitive tribal societies?

As a believer you thus have to choose: either you follow the book dogmatically a la Taliban or you “reinterpret” this texts to make it fit our time. The later option however means you admit that morals are not dictated by “god” as unalterable but rather always subject to human reasoning and social change.
That might speak for the idea that they are not “dictated” by “god” at all.

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“We may be confused about the distinction between tolerance and the refusal of evaluation, thinking that tolerance of others requires us not to evaluate what they do.”
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Posted: 31 May 2008 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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matriculated01 - 23 May 2008 08:40 PM

Now how old was Aisha when Muhammed married her?  Was it 9 or something?  I should know this as an ex-Muslim.  I guess the fact that I don’t says something about what kind of “Muslim” I was, huh?

[edit]

Indeed it does.  It says that you never realized how blessed you were to be born into the most beautiful way of life that is Islam.

Ok nevermind, I just looked it up and apparently the little girl was indeed nine.  So Jack-off, you’re saying that a grown man marrying (and presumably having sex with) a nine year old is somehow not grotesque to you…?

Are you a pedophile yourself?  How could you possibly not find this revolting?  Would you like to get yourself a nice little pure 9 year old bride?

Have you ever considered one man inserting his penis into another man’s anus, or a woman’s anus for that matter?  If you are anything like your fellow atheist on this forum, I take it that sodomy does not seem grotesque or revolting to you.  Until you can explain to me why not, I don’t need to explain to you why an older man having sex with a young adolescent girl is acceptable.

You disgust me.

The feeling is mutual.

[ Edited: 31 May 2008 11:34 AM by Jack Shooter]
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Posted: 31 May 2008 11:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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Since the Christians on the board wont do it, let me be the one to say to you, Jack.

You need Jesus and the Bible. Yes you do. Turn to the light named the father, the son and the holy ghost, Jack. That is why you are here. That’s why you logged on, became a member, posted. This is your road to Christianity.
Praise the Lord!

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Posted: 31 May 2008 11:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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Mel Olontha - 27 May 2008 10:42 AM

Just know that Aisha was the age of maturity when the marriage between her and the prophet (peace be upon him) was consumated.  Now, what is wrong with a forty year old + man consumating a marriage with a female who has reached the age of maturity (i.e. puberty) from your “enlightened” perspective?

That’s the whole point, no? What use are “revelations” from the iron age when children were forced to marry old men? How moral is it today to follow the rules of those primitive tribal societies?

As a believer you thus have to choose: either you follow the book dogmatically a la Taliban or you “reinterpret” this texts to make it fit our time. The later option however means you admit that morals are not dictated by “god” as unalterable but rather always subject to human reasoning and social change.
That might speak for the idea that they are not “dictated” by “god” at all.

Actually, moral principles never change.  They constitute truth.  How we apply the principles may change given the circumstance, but not the principles themselves.

Now, only in the so-called “developed” world, which increasingly has little moral bearing it seems, and where child pornography flourishes, is an elder man marrying a younger woman considered primitive and tribal.  Despite your value based judgements (remember, values change like the $, whereas virtues do not), in many societies, even today, an older man marrying a younger woman is considered practical for both parties.

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