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Ayaan Hirsi Ali on “Fitna” and the Dutch response.
Posted: 12 June 2008 05:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 11 June 2008 11:10 AM
burt - 10 June 2008 03:57 AM
Jack Shooter - 09 June 2008 10:14 PM

Diversity is obviously not a problem in Islam, and although this is true, diversity must necessarily have limits as well.  Islam allows for great diversity within generous limits.  Muslim scholars in the past and today have constantly spoke of unity through diversity.  That there are four schools of thought in Sunni Islam, each viewing the other as completely valid, is a proof of this.  I remember attending a conference on this particular subject.

http://www.astrolabe.com/product/19/Unity_Through_Diversity.html

Yes, but in countries where Islam is predominant it prescribes limitations that are rather strict viewed from a Western point of view.

I appreciate that, although I would say strict from the point of view of certain elements within the Western point of view.  Unfortunately, you can’t please everybody.

I know, we all live in a state of moderate dissatisfaction.  LOL

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Posted: 12 June 2008 05:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]  
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burt - 12 June 2008 09:08 AM
Jack Shooter - 11 June 2008 11:10 AM
burt - 10 June 2008 03:57 AM
Jack Shooter - 09 June 2008 10:14 PM

Diversity is obviously not a problem in Islam, and although this is true, diversity must necessarily have limits as well.  Islam allows for great diversity within generous limits.  Muslim scholars in the past and today have constantly spoke of unity through diversity.  That there are four schools of thought in Sunni Islam, each viewing the other as completely valid, is a proof of this.  I remember attending a conference on this particular subject.

http://www.astrolabe.com/product/19/Unity_Through_Diversity.html

Yes, but in countries where Islam is predominant it prescribes limitations that are rather strict viewed from a Western point of view.

I appreciate that, although I would say strict from the point of view of certain elements within the Western point of view.  Unfortunately, you can’t please everybody.

I know, we all live in a state of moderate dissatisfaction.  LOL

smile

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Posted: 13 September 2008 04:35 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]  
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By modern standards, Mohammed was a pedophile. That, if nothing else, renders Islam invalid by modern standards. All your bluster can’t alter that. Islam has no place in the modern world.

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Posted: 13 September 2008 04:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]  
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mesomorph - 13 September 2008 08:35 PM

By modern standards, Mohammed was a pedophile. That, if nothing else, renders Islam invalid by modern standards. All your bluster can’t alter that. Islam has no place in the modern world.

I beg to differ on this reasoning.  An equivalent would be to say that since Thomas Jefferson was a slave owner, this renders the Declaration of Independence invalid.  What does render Islam invalid in the modern world isn’t the behavior of a 7th century individual who for his time lived an honorable life, it is the fact that Muslims today want to retain 7th century standards rather than adapt to modern ones.  And we know that in the long run, those who don’t adapt to change will die out.

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Posted: 14 September 2008 03:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]  
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Jack, that’s a reasonable response to my post, so I’ll ask you some reasonable questions in return. How would you address members of the umma who want to return to the 7th century? The al-Bannas of this world who want to see the expulsion of western liberalism from Muslim lands, if not its outright destruction? How would you treat their romantic attachment to a past golden age?

I personally don’t like many of the features of western culture, particularly its short-sightedness, greed, hedonism, wastefulness, destructiveness and violence. What I do like about western culture is its openness, fairness, liberality and tolerance. Islamic culture evinces few of these virtues at the present time, though it evinces many of the worst aspects of western culture referred to above.

Can Muslim romantics who want to see the return of pure Islam be persuaded of the virtues of openness, fairness, liberality and tolerance? Are these even thought of as virtues in the Islamic frame of reference?

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Posted: 15 September 2008 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]  
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mesomorph - 14 September 2008 07:44 PM

Jack, that’s a reasonable response to my post, so I’ll ask you some reasonable questions in return. How would you address members of the umma who want to return to the 7th century? The al-Bannas of this world who want to see the expulsion of western liberalism from Muslim lands, if not its outright destruction? How would you treat their romantic attachment to a past golden age?

I personally don’t like many of the features of western culture, particularly its short-sightedness, greed, hedonism, wastefulness, destructiveness and violence. What I do like about western culture is its openness, fairness, liberality and tolerance. Islamic culture evinces few of these virtues at the present time, though it evinces many of the worst aspects of western culture referred to above.

Can Muslim romantics who want to see the return of pure Islam be persuaded of the virtues of openness, fairness, liberality and tolerance? Are these even thought of as virtues in the Islamic frame of reference?

Obviously openness, fairness, liberality, and tolerance are virtues within the Islamic framework.  I would think that you already knew this.  And all the things you cite as being problems with the Western world are also problems of the Orient as well.  Regardless of where we locate them, they run contrary to the spirit, and even laws, of Islam.

Islam is perfectly compatable with all the praiseworthy aspects of modern society, but it is deeply incompatible with those aspects that are in fact backward and barbaric, such as greed, hedonism, wastefulness, etc. etc.

Essentially, “Islam vs. the West” are false dichotomies.  There is good and evil, and grey areas in between.  By Islamic standards, many, if not the majority, of “Westerner’s” act more “Islamic” than Muslims themselves.

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Posted: 15 September 2008 11:53 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]  
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Jack Shooter - 15 September 2008 03:31 PM

Obviously openness, fairness, liberality, and tolerance are virtues within the Islamic framework.  I would think that you already knew this.

Yes I did know that, but it’s not obvious

Jack Shooter - 15 September 2008 03:31 PM

By Islamic standards, many, if not the majority, of “Westerner’s” act more “Islamic” than Muslims themselves.

Crikey Jack, that’s an unexpected statement! If that’s really true, shouldn’t you be directing your missionary efforts at your co-religionists instead of at us?

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Posted: 15 September 2008 12:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]  
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mesomorph - 15 September 2008 03:53 PM
Jack Shooter - 15 September 2008 03:31 PM

Obviously openness, fairness, liberality, and tolerance are virtues within the Islamic framework.  I would think that you already knew this.

Yes I did know that, but it’s not obvious

Jack Shooter - 15 September 2008 03:31 PM

By Islamic standards, many, if not the majority, of “Westerner’s” act more “Islamic” than Muslims themselves.

Crikey Jack, that’s an unexpected statement! If that’s really true, shouldn’t you be directing your missionary efforts at your co-religionists instead of at us?

Others are.  Its not my area of interest.

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