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Posted: 09 January 2005 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]  
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Contrary to Mr. Harris' book and the endless excuses of skeptics, belief in God does not suspend a person's ability to reason.
We were given the gift of reason so that we would have the ability to choose God or not to choose God. Many choose to turn away. The blind fanatacism created by reason absent God's grace creates the evil we see all too often. Committing harm in the name of God is an abomination, but such harm is the product of reason rather than the product of faith or belief. It is important to understand that God created only the possibility of evil. It is man that makes it an actuality. He does this by blinding himself to the only source of pure good ever known - God. God is good. God is pure. God is truth. God is light. God is love. God is kindness. God is peace.
Men and their beloved "reason" have perverted the truth for years to suit their own agendas. Without God humanity loses its moral compass. Without God, there is no moral absolute, everything becomes relative. Again, we are left with only our astounding ability to "reason". Murder for example, is abhorrent to most in our society yet "reason" tells us that it's acceptable if a person is either in the fetal stages of development or a murderer themselves. Now, which does the "reasoning" person believe in? That murder is wrong or that it's OK depending on what you think?
I think Mr. Harris is right in the sense that we are on the precipice. We need to abandon the "reason" that has created the evil we witness daily and surrender to God. Absent His divine influence we are doomed to failure.
Jesus Christ said, "Whoever is determined to keep their life will lose it but whoever surrenders his life for my sake will keep it." (Matt. 8:35) A man might be inclined to say, "Well its about time I surrendered my life for Jesus and took some heathens with me!" This represents a small percentage of people interpreting literally that which is meant to be prayerfully reflected upon. For my atheist friends, the passage directs us to surrender what we think we know to Jesus. Anyone remotely familiar with the new testament can recognize the selflessness of Jesus Christ. We would all do well to imitate His obedience to the Father.
Side bar - odds of accidentally producing a single protien molecule in primitive Earth conditions, 1 in 10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000. Science - who would have thought it could lead us to our intelligent designer. Despite your denial you are all my brothers and sisters and I pray for you every day.

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Posted: 09 January 2005 12:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Get a life!  Oh, I forgot, you can’t.

Pete

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Posted: 09 January 2005 01:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Jesus was a meteorite.

“God” was a source for those meteorites (sons of god - Nefilim).

Sorry.

JL

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Posted: 09 January 2005 01:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Mr. Freak,

[quote author=“Jesus Freak”]Contrary to Mr. Harris’ book and the endless excuses of skeptics, belief in God does not suspend a person’s ability to reason.

An assertion you proceed to refute with the rest of your post.

[quote author=“Jesus Freak”]Committing harm in the name of God is an abomination, but such harm is the product of reason rather than the product of faith or belief.

I am sorry to say this but your ignorance of history is an abomination.  Actually, and this is the thrust of Sam’s book, most of societal ills are traceable to religion, whereas most of our advances are due to reason.  In fact, whenever possible, faith institutions have done their best to suppress scientific advances.

[quote author=“Jesus Freak”]God is good. God is pure. God is truth. God is light. God is love. God is kindness. God is peace.

Are these literal or metaphorical?  It sounds like you are saying nothing more than “God is the very, very, bestest, super-duperest THING conceivable”  This, by the way is not very helpful.

[quote author=“Jesus Freak”]Men and their beloved “reason” have perverted the truth for years to suit their own agendas.

As have men and their “beloved faith.”  You are not helping determine anything here.

[quote author=“Jesus Freak”]Without God humanity loses its moral compass. Without God, there is no moral absolute, everything becomes relative.

Hate to break it to you, but the God of your favorite fairy tale was fairly wishy-washy on absolutes himself.  Check your book.  In fact, if we were to follow the advice of your book, we would still be stoning kids and killing the sexually permissive.  (Yeah, prisitine guide for moral indeed.)

Here’s a little secret for you” Morality is not doing what we are TOLD is right, but doing what IS right, and that changes with every situation.  Think of one absolute, and then I am sure you can find an exception to this rule, if none other than God told you so. 

[quote author=“Jesus Freak”]This represents a small percentage of people interpreting literally that which is meant to be prayerfully reflected upon.

How do you decide which are to be read literally and which are to be “prayerfully reflected upon?”  Do you use reason to tell? 

Mr. Freak,

You likely will not heed anything we have to say, but hear this:  once you understand why you reject all other gods, you will understand why we reject one more: they are mythical and lead to division, hatred and war. 

We wish to rid the world of irrationality, and simply ask that faith claims be subjected to the same standards as auto makers, jell-o factories, and People’s Court.  As Sam says, what other realm of knowledge is required to suspend its standards of judgment as we allow for religion?  Would you get on an airplane that the engineer and pilot were not sure about how it worked, but had “faith” that they’d make it to L.A?  Not me, and you shouldn’t either.  Your faith claiim is no different.  Until you are given evidence that what happened in Book A truly happened as opposed to Book B, then you should not submit to it.  Why would a good God require a suspension of reason?  Answer: He/She/It wouldn’t.

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Posted: 09 January 2005 02:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Men and their beloved “reason” have perverted the truth for years to suit their own agendas.

I made a very lazy post, and I apologize.  Ditto to everything Child said and this in addition.

I proudly stand with all those who have perverted the “truth” over the years, and have been called heritics by the christian church.  It is too late to check spelling but here goes:

Copernicus, Giordano Bruno, Galileo, Johannes Kepler, Tyco Brah, Issiac Newton, and uncounted many more.  All of these folks helped push back the frontiers of science, and all were considered heretics in their time.  Of course, I didnt mention the biggest heretic in history:  Mr. Evolution himself, Charles Darwin.  Perhaps the greatest scientist ever!  You hate him, dont you?  Come on, admit it.  He took your literal interpration of the nonsense in genesis and complletly turned it on its head.  From that sprung biology, genetics, geology, and a host of other sciences.

But you know all that, you just choose to reject it and instead continue to believe the unbelievable.  Science will, some day, go all the way back to the beginning of life, just as more and more of the fossil record is discovered every year, and I just hope I am alive to see it.  About all I can do now though, is do everything I can to see that my grandchildren grow up in a world where scientific investigation is still possible.  Do do so, I must waste my time fighting people like you, not literally, but politically, however and wherever I can.  If you want to raise a few generations of scientifically ignorant children, thats your business, but you are not going to have a crack at mine, if I have anything to say about it.

Take your god and shove it!

Pete

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Posted: 09 January 2005 03:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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That diatribe almost doesn’t desrve a response, but . . .  If that convoluted and contradictory mess is your best attempt at using reason, then you really haven’t got a clue about the nature of reasoned discourse.  Have you actually read Sam’s book?  Now there’s a great example of reason put to excellent use!  The very idea of a God (and that includes all of its various permutations) is anti-reason, so don’t even spout your stupidity and self-centered crap until you get a better grasp of what constitutes rational thought.  How about dumping Jesus and adopting Confucius, the originator of “The Golden Rule?”

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Posted: 09 January 2005 03:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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That diatribe almost doesn’t desrve a response, but . . .  If that convoluted and contradictory mess is your best attempt at using reason, then you really haven’t got a clue about the nature of reasoned discourse.  Have you actually read Sam’s book?  Now there’s a great example of reason put to excellent use!  The very idea of a God (and that includes all of its various permutations) is anti-reason, so don’t even spout your stupidity and self-centered crap until you get a better grasp of what constitutes rational thought.  How about dumping Jesus and adopting Confucius, the originator of “The Golden Rule?”

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Posted: 09 January 2005 07:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Dear Freak,

As a biotechnologist working with protein folding problems, I would like to address the facts.

Proteins are indeed incredibly complex molecules, but there are over 100,000 of them and they are still evolving. I can make a new one in my lab - does that mean that I am god?

I agree with you that it appears strange that something so complex might just emerge of its own accord, but let me say this: The chance that an invisible supernatural being, who lives somewhere else in the universe and yet can observe us daily, figured out how to make proteins, are smaller by at least a factor of one million.

My point is this - there are many things that we humans have not figured out yet, but why do religious people so readily believe an answer that is clearly incorrect, instead of just accepting that we don’t know yet and working to try to find out the real answers?  It is incredibly intellectually lazy to just blindly believe the first answer you were told (as a child) and never get past it. Don’t you ever feel even a slight twinge of doubt that maybe the story you tell is full of holes?

If you are not prepared to contribute intellectually and try to defend you views, without self-referential arguments (God exists because God says so), then I would prefer that you stay off this website and go watch a tele-evangelist instead.

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Posted: 10 January 2005 12:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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Why bother ?

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 24 February 2005 02:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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Nietschze - I would also like to address some facts.

[Proteins are indeed incredibly complex molecules, but there are over 100,000 of them and they are still evolving. I can make a new one in my lab - does that mean that I am god?]

Of course you are not God.  You have never created anything.  Your materials already exist.  Speak something into existance from nothing and you might get some to reconsider your proposed claim.  Provide some evidence that any human has ever actually “created” something.  You can not.  What humanity does is discover, re-form, mix up, change, embellish, etc. what is already in existance.  Reason is knowing and admitting the impossibility for humanity to create something new from nothing.

You are right in that there are many things we have not yet figured out.  However, to lay claim to the impossible is not an intellectual contribution to the defense of reason.  You may refute that you are not trying to lay claim to the impossible - if not, then what is the point of your argument?

[My point is this - there are many things that we humans have not figured out yet, but why do religious people so readily believe an answer that is clearly incorrect, instead of just accepting that we don’t know yet and working to try to find out the real answers? It is incredibly intellectually lazy to just blindly believe the first answer you were told (as a child) and never get past it. Don’t you ever feel even a slight twinge of doubt that maybe the story you tell is full of holes?]

And my point is this - why do those who claim to only believe in science/reason not accept proven truth that they do not want to believe?  Why do so many scientists disagree about things?  I also firmly believe in science and reason, however I reject that which does not have sufficient evidence.  It is “incredibly intellectually lazy” not to.  It is just as lazy to blindly believe something spoken by any old scientist as it is to believe the “first answer you were told and never get past it.”  People often blindly believe whatever they want to believe and will rework the evidence to support their own selfish conclusions, including some scientists.

“Don’t you ever feel even a slight twinge of doubt that maybe” - the science you believe could be - “full of holes?”

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Posted: 24 February 2005 08:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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[quote author=“Just a thinker”]Of course you are not God.  You have never created anything.  Your materials already exist.  Speak something into existance from nothing and you might get some to reconsider your proposed claim.  Provide some evidence that any human has ever actually “created” something.  You can not.  What humanity does is discover, re-form, mix up, change, embellish, etc. what is already in existance.  Reason is knowing and admitting the impossibility for humanity to create something new from nothing.

Humans create brand new things all the time.  Math and logic immediately come to mind.  Art, music, literature and even these posts are all things that were created by people.  There is, in physics, an interesting and somewhat contoversial field of inquiry know as “zero point field theory”.  I will probably make some physicists cringe here, but, in essence, in a vacuum, there is evidence to indicate that out of nothing, something and anti-something occasionaly diverge for almost inconceibably short periods of time.  There is no reason to believe that it would be in violation of the laws of the physical universe to tease something and anti-something apart during one of these brief seperations.

And my point is this - why do those who claim to only believe in science/reason not accept proven truth that they do not want to believe? Why do so many scientists disagree about things? I also firmly believe in science and reason, however I reject that which does not have sufficient evidence. It is “incredibly intellectually lazy” not to. It is just as lazy to blindly believe something spoken by any old scientist as it is to believe the “first answer you were told and never get past it.” People often blindly believe whatever they want to believe and will rework the evidence to support their own selfish conclusions, including some scientists.

Why does anyone avoid facts that they don’t want to believe?  However, if one looks at the rate of change in what the scientific community believes about the origins of life, and compares that to the realative constancy of the Christian viewpoint, it is quite clear which side is more open to having their beliefs questioned.

The fact that so many scientists disagree about things is a sign of healthy debate, which is one of the cornerstones of any honest quest for truth.

Let us be frank:  In science, one of the main measures of a theory’s worth is its ability to make reliable predictions.  The reason that scientific minds are skeptical with regards to Christian (indeed virtually any supernatural belief) assertions, is that they are notoriously difficult to test.  If one believes that the Bible is right about something that is contradictory to popularly held scientific belief, then formulate a specific hypothesis, and go gather data with which to prove it.

-Matt

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Posted: 24 February 2005 07:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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Guest,

Don’t make me laugh. Where is this proof you speak of for god’s ability to create anything?

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Posted: 15 January 2006 04:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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[quote author=“Jesus Freak”]Contrary to Mr. Harris’ book and the endless excuses of skeptics, belief in God does not suspend a person’s ability to reason.

Except that it does:
Any belief can impede one’s ability to reason
  (even in scientists - search for “ Problems that derive from belief ”)
Belief in God is a belief
Therefore: A belief in God can impede one’s ability to reason.

[quote author=“Jesus Freak”]Committing harm in the name of God is an abomination, but such harm is the product of reason rather than the product of faith or belief.

Yes, it is an abomination and God is okay with it:
“But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.” ( Luke 19:27 )

From nobeliefs.com: Although Jesus in one instance calls for the love of enemies, at the end of the parable of ten pounds, he orders to slay his enemies that would deny his reign ( Luke 19:12-27 ). Despite the commandment not to kill, Jesus accepts the killing of humans here.

[quote author=“Jesus Freak”]It is important to understand that God created only the possibility of evil.

  Then there is no possibility of good.

[quote author=“Jesus Freak”]Again, we are left with only our astounding ability to “reason”. Murder for example, is abhorrent to most in our society yet “reason” tells us that it’s acceptable if a person is either in the fetal stages of development or a murderer themselves. Now, which does the “reasoning” person believe in? That murder is wrong or that it’s OK depending on what you think?

  What if you’re attacked and left with no recourse?  Why do you think civic laws reflect situational ethics?

[quote author=“Jesus Freak”]Jesus Christ said, “Whoever is determined to keep their life will lose it but whoever surrenders his life for my sake will keep it.” (Matt. 8:35) A man might be inclined to say, “Well its about time I surrendered my life for Jesus and took some heathens with me!” This represents a small percentage of people interpreting literally that which is meant to be prayerfully reflected upon.

  This is exactly the point.  This small percentage of believers threatens everyone including believers.

[quote author=“Jesus Freak”]Anyone remotely familiar with the new testament can recognize the selflessness of Jesus Christ. We would all do well to imitate His obedience to the Father.

See Luke above: killing is not selfless.  Therefore we can recognize Jesus Christ is not a testament to selflessness.

[quote author=“Jesus Freak”]who would have thought it could lead us to our intelligent designer.

It could, but it shouldn’t

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Posted: 15 January 2006 07:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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We’ve already debated this. Everyone knows that the Bible is full of passages that tell you to commit violence in the name of intolerance and God. And by not killing every non-believer you see, you’re already disobeying the clear word of God, as written in the Bible. And God really does hate homosexuals (Leviticus, Romans). What do you have to say about the icky parts of the Bible (they exist both in the new and old testament)?

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Posted: 16 January 2006 05:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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[quote author=“treblinka”]God does not command the average Catholic inthe stret to do harm to any homosexual.

Who command the average Homosexual-turn-Catholic priest into
turning young innocente boys into Homosexuals ?

It has happened so many times in US, and indeed made many
parents very scared and angry I guess.

Treblinka do you find this Truth disturbing ?

            much love !

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Posted: 16 January 2006 10:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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You still haven’t answered my question. What do you have to say about the parts of the Bible that really do tell you to do immoral things?

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