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Posted: 10 December 2005 09:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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I guess what makes me the most skeptical about this is:

It is a rehash of humanities most ancient weaknessess, some of the same ones that led to “gods”.

What do we have here?  A higher power.  What can this higher power do?  See into the future. 

Chariots of the Gods….
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0425074811/102-2684729-7792927?v=glance&n=283155

Seth Speaks…
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1878424076/102-2684729-7792927?v=glance&n=283155


There are more things in Heaven and Earth than are dreamt of in your philosophy…however the repetativeness of man’s need for a higher power and the ability to see the future make me question doubly any claims that such a thing exists.

People want to believe someone will come fix everything.  People want to believe that it is possible to predict and change the future.  People want to believe that existance is mystical and magical, even when they base their beliefs on “science” in order to convince others, which they do to get validation of their own beliefs.  I even think people want to believe in high drama and coming catastrophes.

But wanting to believe all this doesn’t make it so.

So it is all very interesting, but it is unknowable and unverifiable for me, and for me to “believe” it is personally unnecessary.

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Posted: 10 December 2005 10:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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There’s nothing to believe here. We have proved the case is real and authentic, yet I can’t say that everything in it is true since there are things referred to in an unknown to us past and an as yet unknown future. However, every proof in the case can be discovered by anyone, as I did myself; I guess you would say that it conforms in that way to the scientific method.

It should come as no surprise that it is alleged in this case that the “gods” of the past were only more advanced, space-traveling humans, difficult as it may be for some people to accept that we are neither the most advanced nor most intelligent beings in the universe. However, it is sufficient for people to discover what is, and what can be proved to be, true. This case is true, based on all of the research and investigation done into it by military and scientiifc experts. But that’s my conclusion and, if you’re interested, you might wish to draw your own based on logic, common sense and reasoning in looking at the evidence.

Should the case be true and should you find that irrelevant anyway, then that’s up to you. But let’s not mischaracterize or minimize the fact that, if true, it’s the most importan story in all of human history - and one that could impact the meaning of the beliefs that you and others, knowingly or unknowingly, hold.

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Posted: 10 December 2005 11:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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“Can you imagine someone passing that lint around for 26 years?”

You bet I can! I wouldn’t be surprised if you couldn’t still find this on line somewhere as a verified example of an alien “implant.” Not that I’m going to bother to look for it. That’s no weirder than spending a fortune for electron microscope analysis and various types of fancy chemical analysis of a speck of Chinese silk, which any textile expert could have identified in a minute under a regular microscope. It’s amazing how completely wishful thinking can dispose of logic and reason, and how impressive an apparently scientific analysis that’s completely off the mark can sound to those who aren’t in a position to judge what’s been done.

Now, I’m not your average run-of-the-mill debunker. Sometimes the explanations, equally scientific sounding, the debunkers come up with are even weirder and less likely to be true than the explanations of the “believers.” When people have agendas, no matter what the agenda, and are determined to “prove” they’re right using “science” the results can be, well, hilarious. Science absolutely has to be objective and the results have to be whatever they really are. Somebody should write a book about this. it could really be fun, and might even have some value.

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Posted: 10 December 2005 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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“Marcel Vogel: Research chemist for IBM for twenty-two years, held thirty-two patents, and invented the magnetic disk coating memory system still used in IBM disk memories. A specialist in the conversion of energy inside crystals, Vogel probed crystalline structures with the most complete optical microscopic equipment available in the world - a system of scanning electron microscopes costing $250,000. Lieut. Col. Wendelle Stevens, USAF (Ret.): One of the original investigators in the Meier case. In 1979, he sent Vogel crystals and metal samples Meier had received from the Plejarens. Vogel reported, ”When I touched the oxide with a stainless steel probe, red streaks appeared and the oxide coating disappeared. I just touched the metal like that, and it started to deoxidize and become a pure metal. I have never seen a phenomenon like that before.” Of another metal sample containing nearly every element in the periodic table, Vogel stated, “Each pure element was bonded to each of the others, yet somehow retained its own identity.” At 500 X magnification thulium was revealed. “Thulium exists only in minute amounts. It is exceedingly expensive, far beyond platinum, and rare to come by. Someone would have to have an extensive metallurgical knowledge even to be aware of a composition of this type”, said Vogel. At 1600 X Vogel said, “A whole new world appears in the specimen. There are structures within structures - very unusual.” At 2500 X he found that the sample was, “metal, but at the same time ... it is crystal!”’

This is exactly what I mean by the mystification of science. In the first place, much of this is exactly what I’d expect to be found—there’s nothing unusual about crystalline structures within an alloy. That depends on the cooling process when the alloy was made. As for “nearly every element in the periodic table,” so you’ve got a metallurgical ‘salad.’ Unusual perhaps, but not proof of anything in particular, is it?  Like I said, some nut could have clobbered it together, or, more legitimately, it might have been made to use as a standard for comparison during analysis. For various reasons, thulium could have been present in tiny amounts as an impurity within something else in the mix. And so on. The cost of the electron microscope doesn’t impress me. Plenty of those around. Neither does the qualification of the “expert.” What I’d want to know is how much actual analysis has he been involved with? Sounds like that’s not exactly his area of expertise. Analyzing an alloy is pretty far removed from the conversion of energy inside crystals, isn’t it? This might better have been examined by someone who specializes in the analysis of alloys. Then there would have been far less excitement about finding things like ‘crystals’ for example. Even in 1979.

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Posted: 10 December 2005 11:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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Anyway, back to my original question: why is this topic posted in the Judaism section? Wasn’t Billy Meier anti-Semetic?

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Posted: 10 December 2005 12:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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More nonsense. In order to ascertain the credibility of the analysis it would be helpful to see it, as it’s available on video. The fact is that all of the elements in the sample were NOT (as Vogel specifically stated) in a metallurgical ‘salad’ but uniquely separate and discreet from each other, not “clobbered together”. And the nature of the crystaline structures, as well as the sophistication of the laser cutting, were sufficiently remarkable to warrant Vogel’s comments.

But I doubt that someopne who so carelessly insinuates that Meier is an anti-Semite, without corroborating it, and dismisses the credentials of a bona fide genius like Vogel out of hand wouldn’t trouble himself to separate fact from his own fiction.

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Posted: 10 December 2005 01:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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[quote author=“MJ”]Anyway, back to my original question: why is this topic posted in the Judaism section? Wasn’t Billy Meier anti-Semetic?

This thread belongs off to the side, in Schizophrenic’s Corner. What? . . . You haven’t noticed that category? . . . Look a little harder and you’ll be sure to find it.

Sorry, Michael812. Just kidding around. Sort of.

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Posted: 10 December 2005 01:16 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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I’ve heard a lot worse but then again the info in the case can be quite threatening for people who - believe that they don’t have belief systems.

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Posted: 10 December 2005 01:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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[quote author=“Michael812”]I’ve heard a lot worse but then again the info in the case can be quite threatening for people who - believe that they don’t have belief systems.

Michael812, to believe is to doubt. When you really know something you stop believing. So I’ll concede your observation. I doubt plenty.

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Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
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Posted: 10 December 2005 02:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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Michael,

You’re not helping your case by calling us lazy, and our objections nonsense. This is not about what we want to believe or are afraid to believe. I’ve already stated that an alien visitation would be right up there at numero uno as far as human history is concerned( if only to see some of our friends try to convince them Christ is their savior too; what a hoot). Personally, the universe loses no fascination whether we are alone or not.

But…..you have no convincing evidence. The eye witness accounts I read….reminded me of the hot air bags I made as a teenager. Dry cleaner bags with balsa wood and sterno, and maybe a dangling sparkler would give the same affect from a few hundred meters away. They are weird looking at night…glowing, pulsating, as they float off.

And…. Vogel stated, “Each pure element was bonded to each of the others, yet somehow retained its own identity.” This statement makes no sense on several levels and I can’t imagine a scientist saying it. And ”When I touched the oxide with a stainless steel probe, red streaks appeared and the oxide coating disappeared. I just touched the metal like that, and it started to deoxidize and become a pure metal. I have never seen a phenomenon like that before.” There are no pure red metals and oxides often scrape off easily. No thrill there….so until we have a modern analysis, I wouldn’t be so sure it’s even a rare alloy, much less one that couldn’t be fudged.

And….even if photographs can’t be duplicated(yet), it doesn’t follow that this is proof of alien spacecraft. Claim that it is, and you are giving up your scientific credibility.

Rational people can be convinced with evidence….like I said, one alien cheek swab or a can of alien carrots would just about do it for me.

Rod

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Posted: 10 December 2005 02:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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Talk about not helping one’s cause:

“But…..you have no convincing evidence. The eye witness accounts I read….reminded me of the hot air bags I made as a teenager. Dry cleaner bags with balsa wood and sterno, and maybe a dangling sparkler would give the same affect from a few hundred meters away. They are weird looking at night…glowing, pulsating, as they float off.”

Why not do some homework instead of posting embarrassingly, what words am I looking for here, lazy and nonsensical objections?

It’s funny that when I showed the 8 different film segments (of up to three of the UFOs in a segment), and a book full of Meier’s photos to the guys who did the Academy Award-winning special effects for “Independence Day”, they had a vastly different opinion than yours. They actually laughed at the suggestion (from the geniuses at CFI-West) that Meier used models! Whne I asked them if they could duplicate Mieer’s evidence they said, “IF we could duplicate it, we’d have to go to CGI. Those aren’t models, we know models.” (an opinion basically shared also by the man who did the special effects for “2001”).

Yes inded, it sure would be numero uno if it’s true and I’d like to ask the moderator to move this discussion onto the “main forum” if such exists and is posible. While it started off with my attempting to show that the gods of the OT were space travelers, based on my interpretation of Ezekiel, maybe it’s time to open this up to those who presumably haven’t ventured over here to check it out.

And maybe one or two people might then notice that we have, in additon to six categories of still irreproducible physical evidence, some 55 years of specific, prophetically accurate scientific and world event related information, provably present in published books and documents long before the events occurred.

In other words, while everyone here is fairly confident that the religions are bunk, why not see if we can clarify how they came into existence and who the gods may have been. An internet search for “vimanas” is also recommended, as is contemplation as to why virtually all of the gods were associated with coming from the sky in one manner or another.

Surely we’re not so ego (or culturally) centered as to think that all of the past civilizations were made of superstitious primitives who all simply made up their gods out of…thin air?

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Posted: 10 December 2005 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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P.S. As for “even if photographs can’t be duplicated(yet)” “yet”?, over 40 years since Meier first started taking UFO his photos and the same guy who made hot air bags as a teenager can’t duplicate them?

Maybe hot air is your specialty and maybe if you tie one hand behind your back to simulate Meier’s handicap you’ll have some luck - but watch out for those sparklers.

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Posted: 10 December 2005 02:49 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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Michael812, the word count of those who preach as you do pales in comparison to that of religious apologists. Don’t flatter yourself.

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Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
Ludwig Wittgenstein

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Posted: 10 December 2005 04:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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Michael,

OK, you convinced me, I’ll write about it when I get back from church.

Rod

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Posted: 10 December 2005 04:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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I live in California’s Sonoma County, which is only slightly north of a major center of American craziness or sanity, depending on your perspective. We’ve got a few door-to-door Witnesses in my neighborhood, but we also have our share of evangelists who offer much that strays from what the religionists offer up. My personal favorite, Brian M., preaches at the downtown Santa Rosa Starbucks. I’ve never in my life seen such a brilliant mathematical savant. He always says, “It’s (referring to physics and/or mathematics) easy. You know how to do it.” But of course I don’t. I majored in the humanities. Brian says that he never even went to college and was able to pick up on such a simple subject as the mathematics behind particle physics on his own. He also says that his DNA is wound more tightly than mine and that of other pure earthlings. A former Jehovah’s Witness, Brian works full time at a real job and offends no one except those few who occasionally look at Skeptic Magazine. You won’t find a more outgoing, energetic and congenial Starbuck’s regular, unless you’re someone of my ilk: obviously an FBI or CIA agent, searching furtively for universal order so as to destroy it as a way of preserving the livelihoods of every corrupt Ivy-League Ph.D. who mistakenly denies Brian’s TRUTH.

- Elmer Gantry

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Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
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