A very sad day
Posted: 22 May 2008 03:22 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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It is official.
Freedom of expression in The Netherlands has now ended.

And you get one guess at the religion of the person who brought the complaint against him,

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/16/europe/EU-GEN-Netherlands-Cartoonist-Arrested.php


Dutch cartoonist arrested on suspicion of violating hate speech laws
The Associated PressPublished: May 16, 2008

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands: A Dutch political cartoonist was arrested this week on suspicion of insulting people because of their race or religion through his work, authorities said Friday.

The cartoonist, who works under the pseudonym Gregorius Nekschot, was arrested Tuesday on suspicion of violating hate speech laws and held overnight before being released, a spokeswoman for his publisher Uitgeverij Xtra said.

“He was arrested with a great show of force, by around 10 policemen,” the spokeswoman said.

She asked that her name not be used, and declined to give Nekschot’s real name, because the cartoonist and publisher have both received death threats.

Nekschot is known primarily for cartoons mocking Muslims and leftists, though the spokeswoman said he is a satirist who targets “any strong ideology.”

Amsterdam public prosecutor spokeswoman Sanne van Meteren said Nekschot remains a suspect in a criminal investigation.

“We suspect him of insulting people on the basis of their race or belief, and possibly also of inciting hate,” she said.

Each is a crime punishable by up to a year in prison under Dutch hate speech laws — or two years for multiple offenses.

Nekschot publishes primarily on several Web sites, including his own, but has also been featured on the Web site of Theo van Gogh, the filmmaker who was murdered by a Muslim radical in November 2004.

The cartoonist also works for HP/De Tijd, a major Dutch language weekly news magazine, and he has published two books.

One recent cartoon on his web site caricatured a Christian fundamentalist and Muslim fundamentalist as zombies who met at an anti-gay rally and now wished to marry.

Van Meteren said prosecutors were investigating a complaint that dated from 2005. They are now focusing on eight or nine published cartoons, she said, but prosecutors are not disclosing which ones.

Nekschot did not answer police questions during his arrest, she said, appealing to his right to remain silent to avoid self-incrimination.

The spokeswoman for Xtra said police had seized Nekschot’s computer, sketches, CDs, DVDs and telephone at the time of his arrest.

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Posted: 22 May 2008 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Here’s an interview with Nekschot (in case you are wondering this means ‘a bullet in the back of the head’)

Most of the interview is in English but parts are in Danish.
No problem for most of you I am sure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pbJHcnE1tk

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“You know I’m born to lose, and gambling is for fools.
But that’s the way I like it baby, I don’t want to live forever.”

From the autobiography of A.A.Mills, ‘The passage of time, according to an estranged, casual tyrant.’

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Posted: 23 May 2008 09:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Interesting Sander.

Do you consider making fun of (or ridiculing) peoples religion the same as making fun of their race or ethnicity? Just wondering.

Hate speech laws are the Pandoras box that possibly should have never been opened. Once we start slipping down that slope, where do we end up?

People can say anything they want to as long as they do not make fun of the Irish. That is intolerable to me. grin

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Posted: 23 May 2008 03:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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McCreason - 23 May 2008 01:39 PM

Interesting Sander.

Do you consider making fun of (or ridiculing) peoples religion the same as making fun of their race or ethnicity? Just wondering.

I think there is a difference.
Since religion is merely a theory that, as claimed by the faithful, is something they chose (which, of course, it usually is not ) it should be fair game.
Ethnicity and race aren’t voluntary so a hostile joke about them is nasty without a real point.
There are plenty of comedians ( Lisa Lamponelli for instance) who make gratuitous jokes about blacks and Jews and Latinos ) but her jokes aren’t meant to kill and usually comedians of this type dish it out equally.
Someone who makes jokes exclusively about one race/ethnicity is easily recognized as a racist.

In the case of Gregorius Nekschot you have to understand the Dutch contemporary context.
Yes, he is extremely offensive and crude but extreme ridicule has been part of Dutch culture since the late 1960’s.

It has been acceptable in my culture up until the arrival of large amounts of Muslims in Holland.

The bottom line is that religion is changing what is considered kosher in Holland when it comes to free-speech.
A cartoonist being arrested.
I honestly never thought I would live to see that day.

McCreason - 23 May 2008 01:39 PM

Hate speech laws are the Pandoras box that possibly should have never been opened. Once we start slipping down that slope, where do we end up?

They are, but you have to understand that Europe has a very nasty history with hate-speech and it is still on all of our minds, 65 years afterwards.

It shouldn’t be all that difficult though to distinguish between harsh humor and incitement to violence.

I think Wilders was wrong when he said that the Koran should be banned, but if you are going to forbid vicious cartoons than you should be consistent and pass a law to edit the Koran to rid it of its explicit instructions to kill anyone who isn’t a Muslim in which case the book could be printed on a match-box.

Just for the record, I don’t care for his work at all.
I think it is in bad taste, but that should be irrelevant to the issue at hand.

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“You know I’m born to lose, and gambling is for fools.
But that’s the way I like it baby, I don’t want to live forever.”

From the autobiography of A.A.Mills, ‘The passage of time, according to an estranged, casual tyrant.’

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Posted: 23 May 2008 03:36 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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Yeah, seems to be a fine line.

Being a libertarian I am inclined to agree with you about free speech. No one is forced to read or look at the cartoons.

That being said, for a civilized society to progress for the better of all, some medium must be found and maintained. Common decency and respect have to be factored in at some point.

But….it is just a religion in question. Of course people should not take their particular belief in an imaginary friend so seriously. That I would guess is the real problem.

Let me e-mail Don Imus and see what he thinks about this. grin

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Posted: 23 May 2008 04:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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This is primal scream inducing information.
It’s surreal.
It’s maddening.
It’s so fucking sad.
In this case the slippery slope slid down into some sort of dark bizzaro-world where the actual hate speech offenders—the ones actually threatening life and limb—are the ones with the prosecution on their side.

If the idea behind hate speech codes or laws was to end racism and encourage civilized discourse, it has failed and has gone from fomenting to enforcing civilized discourse, and has become tantamount to thought police.

What is to become of the Netherlands when the people seem to equate ridiculing religious beliefs/ideas/opinions with ridiculing unchangeable ethnic/biological characteristics or traits?

This is going to turn out to be one of the largest mistakes a government body could have made. And the willingness of the people interviewed in the news story to agree that the cartoonist should be jailed! What the fuck?! Did the gov. put stupid pills in the water? You can’t and shouldn’t legislate nice. It is so offensive to me, this unwillingness to be offended.

They might as well have outlawed humor: One of the most effective means of of exposing the truly hateful ideologies and hypocrisies of humankind.

Every and all: please make sure to post any petitions/sites that pop up to help Nekschot. ii.

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Posted: 23 May 2008 04:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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I see this as no different than any other hate speech, but I’m not sure I agree with a year in prison for hate speech in general.  If you get to the realm of slander, lawsuits are in order.  The issue of slandering a diety is trickier though obviously.  Perhaps a national orgization for the religion being offended could file the suit and collect the rewards for charities perhaps.  Jail is ridiculus for this.  Lawsuits by offended parties woul be ok IF it constituts slander.

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Posted: 23 May 2008 05:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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Wow, tavish, you see this as “no different than any other hate speech?”  The man is a cartoonist.  He makes fun of shit.  Get your brainwashed head out of your ass and at least, AT LEAST, stand up for free speech. In the Netherlands, of all places.  The country to which people have fled for centuries to escape political or religious persecution for things they say.  Take a one-second break from your apologizing for fundamentalist Islam and Iran and realize that this sort of crap has no place in a civilized society.  Damn I’m glad I stopped thinking like you a long time ago.  It’s a sad spectacle, not only what’s going on in Holland but also the self-loathing by Western liberals such as yourself who see a cartoonist’s humor as “no different than any other hate speech.”  The mullahs would be proud of you.

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Posted: 24 May 2008 07:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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I suppose the question is, should satirical cartoons that scoff at religion…... be considered hate speech?

Distasteful to disgusting…..maybe.
Disrespectful….surely

But…hateful?

I personally think that is a stretch, but even if European governments want to try and legislate out ‘hate’ among their respective societies….they can do it resonably.

Prison sentences for expression of distasteful opinion?
I think not and quite ridiculous.

I think this is a fascinating occurrence and I cannot help but wonder what would happen if this were to be in our God filled christian America.

I assume a cartoonist would be out of a job and a newspaper embarrased and apologetic.

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Posted: 24 May 2008 06:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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[quote author=“McCreason”]I think this is a fascinating occurrence and I cannot help but wonder what would happen if this were to be in our God filled christian America.

I assume a cartoonist would be out of a job and a newspaper embarrased and apologetic.

Have you ever watched South Park, especially when Jesus is fighting Satan?  There is incredible freedom to spoof religion in the US, EXCEPT when it comes to Islam, for fear of a global temper tantrum. It is cool in the US to spoof Christianity, but everyone is afraid to spoof Islam.

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Posted: 24 May 2008 07:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 24 May 2008 10:02 PM

Have you ever watched South Park, especially when Jesus is fighting Satan?  There is incredible freedom to spoof religion in the US, EXCEPT when it comes to Islam, for fear of a global temper tantrum. It is cool in the US to spoof Christianity, but everyone is afraid to spoof Islam.

You get it Bruce.

This is not about ‘respect’ for religion.
This is about threats of violence and the spineless jackassery of some of us who refuse to see murderous assholes for what they are….... murderous assholes.

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“You know I’m born to lose, and gambling is for fools.
But that’s the way I like it baby, I don’t want to live forever.”

From the autobiography of A.A.Mills, ‘The passage of time, according to an estranged, casual tyrant.’

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Posted: 25 May 2008 08:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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And why is that Bruce? Why in a largely christian nation do we allow spoofing our own majority and category of believers but get all upset when a rival cult is spoofed?

One could say political correctness or maybe that we just pull for the underdog?

This is really, really nonsensical.

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Posted: 26 May 2008 01:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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Sander - 22 May 2008 07:22 PM

It is official.
Freedom of expression in The Netherlands has now ended.

And you get one guess at the religion of the person who brought the complaint against him,

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2008/05/16/europe/EU-GEN-Netherlands-Cartoonist-Arrested.php


Dutch cartoonist arrested on suspicion of violating hate speech laws
The Associated PressPublished: May 16, 2008

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands: A Dutch political cartoonist was arrested this week on suspicion of insulting people because of their race or religion through his work, authorities said Friday.

The cartoonist, who works under the pseudonym Gregorius Nekschot, was arrested Tuesday on suspicion of violating hate speech laws and held overnight before being released, a spokeswoman for his publisher Uitgeverij Xtra said.

“He was arrested with a great show of force, by around 10 policemen,” the spokeswoman said.

She asked that her name not be used, and declined to give Nekschot’s real name, because the cartoonist and publisher have both received death threats.

Nekschot is known primarily for cartoons mocking Muslims and leftists, though the spokeswoman said he is a satirist who targets “any strong ideology.”

Amsterdam public prosecutor spokeswoman Sanne van Meteren said Nekschot remains a suspect in a criminal investigation.

“We suspect him of insulting people on the basis of their race or belief, and possibly also of inciting hate,” she said.

Each is a crime punishable by up to a year in prison under Dutch hate speech laws — or two years for multiple offenses.

Nekschot publishes primarily on several Web sites, including his own, but has also been featured on the Web site of Theo van Gogh, the filmmaker who was murdered by a Muslim radical in November 2004.

The cartoonist also works for HP/De Tijd, a major Dutch language weekly news magazine, and he has published two books.

One recent cartoon on his web site caricatured a Christian fundamentalist and Muslim fundamentalist as zombies who met at an anti-gay rally and now wished to marry.

Van Meteren said prosecutors were investigating a complaint that dated from 2005. They are now focusing on eight or nine published cartoons, she said, but prosecutors are not disclosing which ones.

Nekschot did not answer police questions during his arrest, she said, appealing to his right to remain silent to avoid self-incrimination.

The spokeswoman for Xtra said police had seized Nekschot’s computer, sketches, CDs, DVDs and telephone at the time of his arrest.

I’m not shocked , I’m mad ; very mad and disgusted—it is a knife in my gut…that this could happen. I was just counting the minutes before they caved in to those slimey Muslim “visiters” . As I’ve said again and again…this is an example of what happens when a country is too amiable towards a people with perverted ideas about thier rights and destiny and thier intendtion to impose it on whoever they can take advantage of and intimidate. To the Dutch : WAKE UP !  Who will be next ?  One step at a time, before we know it, they will gain strength and influance.  In a nutshell, there you have it . Don’t mince words- tell it like it is !

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