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A facinating scary look into a cult…
Posted: 28 November 2008 05:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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You probably shouldn’t risk your job; but find a way to document these types of violations so that you can report them to someone outside your company. If your coworkers can have religious texts and icons, you should be allowed to read Sagan. Jeebus H!  It’s a good thing you weren’t reading Dawkins. I know very little about the law; but it seems to me that an employer must either keep the workplace sterile and free of all non work related material, or allow anything that does not violate the standards of the community. I could understand people getting offended by a Penthouse; but not Sagan. Perhaps you should bring The Cosmos and watch it on your laptop.

I actually work at a different place now and while with some people I have to “tip toe” a bit around their feelings, I am able to express my personal views somewhat and not cower in the corner. I am getting more used to being true to myself and while I may be in the closet, at least I leave the door open now.

You are absolutely right about more of us Atheists and free thinkers standing up and being heard. Perhaps it’s a gradual process of first coming to terms with the truth and then letting other know how you feel. In the beginning when I came to this realization, I was quite an ass about it and quite rude about pointing out my enlightened views. My very Mormon parents, while they were also behaving ass-like, really were quite shocked and horrified when they found out how I felt.

I often think if I was a little more subtle about it then it would have been easier on them but probably not.

Perhaps soon I will feel confident enough to stand a little firmer.

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Posted: 28 November 2008 05:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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LordofLords - 28 November 2008 01:05 AM

This cult has nothing to do with God and his perfect love. That cult is just the devil trying to make Christians look bad which is what Satan does. The evil one uses the news people and enters their hearts and makes them make up stories that try to make the Holy Bible and God and his people look bad.

I’m sorry but have you read the Bible? Seriously, do you actually think Christians or the God of the Bible need any help making them look bad?

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Posted: 28 November 2008 05:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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CindyJayne - 27 November 2008 02:58 PM

I used to work as a manager of a team in a call center. People often brought books in to read at their desk on break or at lunch. Many (who were probably trying to impress others with their faith or witness to them) brought their Bibles to read. One day I had Carl Sagan’s book “Demon Haunted World” on my desk to read to lunch. I was moderately open (translate: too chicken to come out all the way) at the time that I was not a church goer.

Someone was standing at my desk and made the comment “I believe in demons. I believe they are everywhere trying to control everything.”

Stunned, I did not know quite how to reply (and I was trying very hard to not laugh histerically) so I said simply. “I don’t.”

This person then said to me “Well, since you don’t go to church you probably don’t believe in God either.” Then they walked away.

Later that afternoon I was called into see HR because that person had made a formal complaint stating “My book had offended him.” I

I told her “It’s a book by Carl Sagan not freakin Hitler.” She said “It is still offensive to others in the workplace so you should not bring in controversial reading material that offends others.”

I asked her why they were allowed to bring in the Bible and have scripture quotes and pictures of angels at their desks which I find objectionably (that may not be a real word) idiotic? She said their religious freedom was protected but my LACK of a belief wasn’t.

That’s when I knew that as long as I was out in the workplace with believers, I was the minority and had no protection what so ever. If I wanted to not only move up but to keep my jobs where ever I work, I needed to keep somewhat silent and vague so I would not offend the masses. I made the mistake at the new place where I work to have a discussion with someone about the idiocy of the Bible. He said to me before he walked out of the lunckroom “Now that I know how you feel I have a completely different opinion of you.” When he sees me in the lunchroom he says “How are things at the Godless side of the room?”

I am surrounded by Evangelicals who constantly refer to the Lord or being blessed or invite me to their church. I (now being the chicken I am) cower somewhat and just say “I am not much of a church goer.”

I have two teenage daughters who believe as I do. They are wonderful, beautiful, smart, compassionate, free thinking individuals who also keep silent knowing that some of their friends and or friends families would shun them if they know they did not believe. They have a few friends they can be open with but for the most part, they have to be somewhat careful in school classroom discussions about evolution, abortion, gay rights, or other controversial subjects. How sad is that?

I have a skeptic website that I use the name Cindy Jayne on also because they are fearful that some parent they know would recognize me if I used my last name too.

Well, this was long. Sorry for the complete novel here. I guess I will go back to my closet.

Happy Thanksgiving!
Cindy

Wow!! The bible, the book that’s full of incest, genocide, rape, and human and animal sacrifice is OK, but Carl Sagan is “offensive.”?? Wow! That would have been my argument. The bible is full of violence and perversions.

It’s interesting that your supervisor said you didn’t have rights, but the religious do. It seems to me that the manager was stopping your freedom of speech and expression.

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Posted: 28 November 2008 05:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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Where are you living now?

So… I take it you’re a stay-at-home mom now? Me too!

My just-turned-15 son is a proud atheist with friends who are muslim, jehovah witness, catholic, various varieties of “christian,” mormon, and non-theist… perhaps your teen-aged children can experience the same positive reactions that my son does… the key is to not be or act ashamed or scared to speak their mind whilst being a… how shall we put it…. a good citizen and authentic human being.

I know how you feel CJ. But if they truly were as christ-like as they claim—and pretend to be—they wouldn’t shun, (or merely make feel uncomfortable), you and your immediate family simply for disbelieving the BOM and “the church teachings”... to this day (20+ years later, in my case), I have family members that treat me, my immediate fam, and my dad and two brothers (the only ones to wake up to the mo-con-shit), like we’re lost sheep; devil possessed even… they pity, and look down their pious noses at me and my family (and my dad and my two bros) because we called bullshit on their cult/religion.

You have family here CJ.

We might not be prone to egg-shell walking or censor-mince-our-words-ship, but we’re here for you and your family.
ii.

 

I live is Oregon now, which is a bit more progressive except for the large Evalgelical church down the road. I was a stay-at-home mom for quite a few years.

My two oldest are married with children and I have a 13 year old and a 17 year old. The oldest girl is a junior and is a little more comfortable with being true to herself. She speaks up in class during controversial subjects and while she is somewhat subdued, is finding it easier as she matures to be herself. Most of her friends though are Christian so she is careful. The 13 year old girls is all about being social and fitting it and just keeps her mouth shut unless she is sure of the reaction. I suspect she will find it easier as she gets older.

I think coming out of the Atheist closet will be easier for them than me who was raised in the church and did not leave till she was older.

I have a wonderful, beautiful, awesome 30 year old daughter who is Mormon and lives in Utah. She thinks the church is weird and does not really believe but her husband, family, neighbors, and husbands boss are all Mormon so she goes with the flow knowing that she would risk too much with the children so young. She gets more and more confident as she matures and I suspect when the kids are older that she will rebel and walk away too. For now, she just prefers to not talk about it.

I am glad you guys don’t walk on eggshells, if I am full of shit I would rather be told. I have done too much egg shell walking as it is.

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Posted: 28 November 2008 05:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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You’re in no way obliged to make any kind of stand. They’re in the wrong, you have no responsibility to fix their bad behavior, so you should only do what you need to in order to minimize the ill effects as much as possible. You’re apparently not “built” to fight or assert yourself in this potentially very risky sense, and that’s perfectly okay. I’m pretty sure the fight’s in you though, and you just don’t find the situation worth the effort to break it out. I think the fight’s in just about everyone. For example, if your girls were treated the way you were (are?) I’m guessing the mama bear would come out, fangs borne and claws extended for some serious arse kicking—eh!?

Welcome, but the way!

Byron

Thanks. You’re right about defending the girls. They are doing a bit better than me though and learning how and when to take a stand and when to walk away. I have to come to a happy medium between a complete all out insane outburst and cowering. I am working on it. I can be assertive but I know from experience that persecution does happen in the workplace so I just smile and say something sarcastic.

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Posted: 28 November 2008 06:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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Wow!! The bible, the book that’s full of incest, genocide, rape, and human and animal sacrifice is OK, but Carl Sagan is “offensive.”?? Wow! That would have been my argument. The bible is full of violence and perversions.

It’s interesting that your supervisor said you didn’t have rights, but the religious do. It seems to me that the manager was stopping your freedom of speech and expression.

Hey, does anyone out there know anything about something called “The Secret” and a church called “Science of the Mind?” I have a friend who thinking about getting mixed up in it and keeps wanting me to watch the movie. I for one, have had my feel of supernatural tales and beliefs and have no intention of swapping one cult of belief system for another.

I looked online to see what it was but it seemed a little vague? Is it the same as Christian Science or Scientology?

Is this something I should have started a new thread on? This format is weird and I am not sure I am responding correctly.

[ Edited: 28 November 2008 06:07 PM by rab]
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Posted: 28 November 2008 06:08 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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I edited previous post to show quote from me, rab.

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Posted: 28 November 2008 06:14 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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CindyJayne, check you PM box.

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Posted: 28 November 2008 06:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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rab - 28 November 2008 11:14 PM

CindyJayne, check you PM box.

What is a PM box and where do I find it?

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Posted: 28 November 2008 08:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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Hey, you successfully quoted me here! You’re getting it ! Good job.

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Posted: 28 November 2008 08:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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CindyJayne - 28 November 2008 11:26 PM
rab - 28 November 2008 11:14 PM

CindyJayne, check you PM box.

What is a PM box and where do I find it?

Perhaps you can teach an old dog new tricks! Thanks for your help. it’s appreciated.

Cindy

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Posted: 06 December 2008 08:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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Cindy,

Gad, your posts make me feel lucky to have had such a relatively religion-free childhood as I’ve had!  Scary stuff.

Dennis

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Posted: 06 December 2008 01:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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Dennis Campbell - 06 December 2008 01:36 PM

Cindy,

Gad, your posts make me feel lucky to have had such a relatively religion-free childhood as I’ve had!  Scary stuff.

Dennis

It’s silly but I actually feel lucky about my childhood too. Perhaps because as far as Mormons go, we were fairly liberal. I made me who I am and I am ok with that. It gives me a close look at what others who are religious think, feel, and believe. My parents did not start getting as extreme and weird until a few years ago and perhaps that is because of their age and being afraid. They are fearful about their future and not having their childran with them when they die…..it is impossible to convince them otherwise.

My husband of 7 years now grew up religion free in the Bay Area and I grew up in Provo Utah. He he great and my best friend but feels like I grew up on another planet or something. He gets a big kick out of all of the weird things I still latch on to. The other day he sent me to the counter of the store to buy his cigarettes and thought it was funny because it was so uncomfortable for me…..I had to make sure everyone at the counter knew that these were for my husband and of course that I didn’t smoke. He laughed all the way home. You can take me out of the church but there will always be some of it left in me.

Cindy

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Posted: 06 December 2008 03:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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Cindy,

Not much help maybe, but even some of the “church” remaining in you provides some sense of continuity, a marker if you will of where you came from.  Absent that sense of personal history, most of us would be much less.  Gad, I’m not that sure I understand what I just wrote, just seemed to make some sense to me,  You should be in a good position to talk with your kids as they develop questions, not that you’ll have answers that always satisfy them. 

Dennis

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Truth, especially “moral truth,” is that elusive human creation whose exclusive apprehension is claimed by many, who then sanctimoniously condemn anyone else who does not agree with their particular apprehension, while denying that any question can be posed about their own apprehension.  I will try to avoid that tendency.  DEC

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Posted: 06 December 2008 03:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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Dennis Campbell - 06 December 2008 08:27 PM

Cindy,

Not much help maybe, but even some of the “church” remaining in you provides some sense of continuity, a marker if you will of where you came from.  Absent that sense of personal history, most of us would be much less.  Gad, I’m not that sure I understand what I just wrote, just seemed to make some sense to me,  You should be in a good position to talk with your kids as they develop questions, not that you’ll have answers that always satisfy them. 

Dennis

I think it may be not only the church remaining in me but not in doctrinal sense. It was an era and time also. The 1950’s were prosperous for many and while there were problems, the was not as much dialog about the problems on tv. I think remaining in me was a close knit community and a neighborhood who all knew each other. My block and sub division in Provo Utah was all Mormon except one family and even they went to church parties and such. My parents were also not very restrictive then also. It was one big happy and prosperous time (as least from a childs prespective.)

I am sure the memories I have of church as a child are simply all mixed in with friends, neighborhood, and a Disney kind of lifestyle.

I think when we moved from there and my father started having finantial problems and us kids grew older and made mistakes, they clung to the church more and more.

The Mormon Church is very controlled, consistant, and scheduled. On any given Sunday around the world, each class will be receiving the same lesson from the same lesson book with few variations. It is not one individual church building doing it’s own thing. It is like a hive. The prayers over the sacrement are all the same…..the temple rituals are all the same with the exact same weird moves and words no matter where you go. I think if someone is feeling worried about their future or living in an unfamiliar place as my parents moved to, this conformity to some can be comforting.

I found it smothering, weird, boring, and nonsensical as I grew older. I am a pretty happy and optimistic person and do not feel I need it. My parents on the other hand, cling to it tightly like a life raft in a sea of uncertainity.

I think, like Sam talks about in his book on the subject of moderates who pick and choose beliefs, there is probably a lot about the doctrine my parents find odd BUT, they would never give up that life raft especially with the seas as stormy as they are now with the economy and terrorists and such. They just overlook the weird shit and play dumb to it and do not want to discuss anything other than being right and going to heaven someday.

I think while having some of it still with me, some of us out there, like those on this forum, are just born with highly tuned and acute “Bullshit Meters” and would rather live the truth and be happy than live a lie and pretend.

Cindy

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