Sam Harris

This prosecution has a chilling effect on speech in the Netherlands.

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/01/21/anti-islam-dutch-lawmaker-to-face-charges/

Such a prosecution would not take place in the USA, where we actually believe in freedom of speech.

Bruce Burleson - 21 January 2009 04:36 PM

This prosecution has a chilling effect on speech in the Netherlands.

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/01/21/anti-islam-dutch-lawmaker-to-face-charges/

Such a prosecution would not take place in the USA, where we actually believe in freedom of speech.

Agreed.  Europeans have much to learn from us when it comes to free speech issues.  This is absurd.

Geez, Sam Harris, Bill Mahler, George Carlin (RIP) - they would all be prosecuted in the Netherlands - they specifically want people to hate all religion. South Park has Jesus getting beaten up by Satan all the time.

I think prosecution for inspiring religious hatred has two main components to it - 1) the Nazi treatment of Jews in WWII; and 2) the Muslim propensity for violent temper tantrums when their religion is criticized.  But until Europe can actually tolerate completely free speech and interchange of ideas, it cannot be considered enlightened.

If nothing else, Sam Harris has created perhaps the most free-speech-friendly environment on the planet. The European Dawkins’ administrators threatened to kick me off several times. That’s what I’ve come to expect from Europeans. If they really understood freedom, they would have come to the US a long time ago.

Are their any laws in the Netherlands protecting free speech? Do we have any Dutch members who know more about the details of this case?

Beam - 21 January 2009 06:56 PM

Are their any laws in the Netherlands protecting free speech? Do we have any Dutch members who know more about the details of this case?

Sander.

Bruce Burleson - 21 January 2009 06:44 PM

The European Dawkins’ administrators threatened to kick me off several times.

Join the club, and I’m an atheist. This is why I rarely frequent the site (even though I’m slightly more partial to Dawkins as a writer than Harris).

Oddly enough, this has occurred when I’ve been at my most conciliatory. What seems to garner the most approval over there is saying things like “Let’s just nuke Israel and be done with it”.

I find this particularly odd given that, to my sensibilities, Dawkins takes a less aggressive approach in general than Sam does.

While I’m at it; why does SH write far angrier than he interviews? I have yet to get a read on that.

Sorry, I’ve spun off topic. This pending trial is disturbing. Perhaps given the large influx of Muslims and events like the murder of Theo Van Gogh and the threats on Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s life, the Dutch authorities are running scared. They may be justifying this action in their heads by telling themselves they are preventing a race/culture war.

Sander?

For what it’s worth, this may be as much about the European tendency to stifle inflammatory speech rather than a specific capitulation to Islamist sentiment.  Don’t forget that you can go to jail in many European countries for Holocaust denial.

[Please note—of COURSE I’m not comparing criticism of Islam or any other religion to the vile practice of denying the reality of the Holocaust; I’m merely pointing out that in much of Europe there are firm limits on what speech is allowed and what isn’t based on content.]

bigredfutbol - 22 January 2009 02:57 PM

For what it’s worth, this may be as much about the European tendency to stifle inflammatory speech…

Not to stick up for suppression of free speech; but if something like Nazism had gone off in your backyard, might you not be a bit nervous about allowing demagogues or potential hate speech to go unchecked?

brf, I’m with you in principle. I’m just putting forth an explanation for the actions of the Dutch that makes some sense to me.

Islam IS Nazism.  They want to kill homosexuals, and force women into a subjugated existance.

bigredfutbol - 21 January 2009 04:57 PM

Agreed.  Europeans have much to learn from us when it comes to free speech issues.  This is absurd.

Not to derail this thread, and as much as I do hate when people try to stifle free speech. Surely you are not attempting to speak on behalf of over 600 million people are you?

I surely would not suggest that a prosecutor does either so lets be careful before saying “europeans” have much to learn about free speech issues.

Bruce Burleson - 21 January 2009 04:36 PM

Such a prosecution would not take place in the USA, where we actually believe in freedom of speech.

To tie in with the above, sadly I do think that these things are more common here, I don’t think because there is any less tradition of free speech here, the only difference is that your legal work to protect free speech is a lot harder to unroot.

I meet and talk to lots of morons here in Europe who do think that its okay to decide what speech is okay and not, but make no mistake about it. I could easily find as many americans thinking the same. Whether it be throwing people out of baseball stadiums for not standing during a patriotic song or in the way your FDA censors television.

Well on a non defensive note though, I’m not suprised. Religious people, and people of all other opinions constantly try to demand that society protects them from being offended.
I’ll wait though with making too much out of this, as far as I can read the article is about a prosectution. People prosecute for all kinds of dumb shit all the time and there is little point wasting letters on it until there has actually been a verdict.

If this fellow would be convicted, then it will be a sad day for the Netherlands, and a grave mistake by the people who support this line.
That said, I really do prefer if you do not automatically group me and every other sane person over here with these fucktards in such a vast generalization.

Unbeliever - 23 January 2009 01:24 AM

...or in the way your FDA censors television.

FYI - it’s the FCC.

Unbeliever - 23 January 2009 01:24 AM

People prosecute for all kinds of dumb shit all the time and there is little point wasting letters on it until there has actually been a verdict.

You’re right, we Americans (kings of the frivolous lawsuit) may be getting a bit undeservedly high and mighty about this. I’ll reserve judgment for now. Could be a Dutch magistrate gets this in front of him and throws it out on its’ ear.

About the FCC

This is the movie that the Netherlands guy is being sued over. About 16 minutes long.

Personally I prefer people having the right to royally offend me. Where is the fun otherwise? I enjoy becoming really upset over dumbasses doing dumbass things.

True free speech doesn’t exist, anyway. No country allows it’s citizens to say absolutely anything to anyone.

Doh, thats embarassing >.< Especially since I do know the difference between the FCC and the Food and Drug Administration.

I’ll categorize it as a misprint

mpbrockman - 23 January 2009 01:49 AM

Unbeliever - 23 January 2009 01:24 AM

...or in the way your FDA censors television.

FYI - it’s the FCC.

I wish the FDA would censor television. Some of the junk food that passes for programming is atrocious.

Bruce Burleson - 23 January 2009 09:31 PM

mpbrockman - 23 January 2009 01:49 AM

Unbeliever - 23 January 2009 01:24 AM

...or in the way your FDA censors television.

FYI - it’s the FCC.

I wish the FDA would censor television. Some of the junk food that passes for programming is atrocious.

Love your sense of humor Bruce. Keep it alive.

mpbrockman - 22 January 2009 09:34 AM

This pending trial is disturbing. Perhaps given the large influx of Muslims and events like the murder of Theo Van Gogh and the threats on Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s life, the Dutch authorities are running scared. They may be justifying this action in their heads by telling themselves they are preventing a race/culture war.

AMSTERDAM, Netherlands (CNN) — Dutch authorities will file charges against a lawmaker for inciting religious hatred in speeches and in a film he made about Islam last year, an Amsterdam district prosecutor told CNN Wednesday.

That was my initial thought, mp. I don’t know what he said in his speeches, but the film is very powerful. It appeared to be factual, although I can’t attest to the accuracy of text attributed to the Quran.

If ones eyes have been closed to real time events, how one doesn’t become an Atheist immediately after viewing something like that, regardless of their religion, whether they consider theirs good or bad, is a complete mystery to me.

I don’t think it incites hatred. I think it is informative with perspective. It’s about terrorists and terrorism. There is a global war, isn’t there? If that’s not the enemy, then who? Goldilocks?