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How can I become more tolerant of the religious?
Posted: 23 May 2012 05:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Attila - 22 November 2011 02:58 PM

....

It would be like requiring that I completely respect a neighbor who routinely conducts animal sacrifice in his yard or conducts seances in his basement.

I’d be okay with the seances in their own basement.  If they subscribed to the belief and tried to force a seance in my home, that is when the line is crossed.

Animal sacrifice:  not okay with.  I’d report that.  I believe that most living beings should not be afforded the trial of physical pain through suffering unless their actions merit a death penalty.  But then we get to moral relativism.

I simply refuse to accept that in order to be a nice person I have to accept any such lunacy without the right to express derision and even ridicule.

I don’t think you are currently denied any rights of this nature.  But you cannot expect the seance neighbor to think you are nice if you do not let him come into your house and perform his seance that he strongly believes will benefit you or himself.

I really think we NEED to do this and it is a big part of why I now identify as an Atheist

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.....eh…. Lost me.  You identify yourself as an atheist ....because you believe atheists encourage or embrace people who deride and ridicule?

I truly believe in moving the bar from it’s current state of acceptance to one of a “freedom to disrespect”.
If the religious have a problem with that then I say” earn my respect for your beliefs through rational discourse or do not mention them in my presence.”

In my experience, that approach has never worked with my theist friends.  It’s combative and not normally how the social greasings of the world work, in my experience.  Do you have any criteria that, if followed, a theist could discuss his beliefs and earn your respect or would you require them to declare god is a hoax before they earned your respect.

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Posted: 26 May 2012 01:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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Gravel - 26 May 2011 08:56 AM

How can I become more tolerant?

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Don’t. It’s a waste of time. Becoming tolerant only encourages them, and does nothing to end the problem. You’ve got to wear them down until they get discouraged and pack it in.
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There’s an old saying which says, “It’s better to insult your friend once than to have him insult you a thousand times.” This, in regard to jollying people along when they do things that annoy you. The thing with religious people is that they’re far worse a case. Insulting them once or twice isn’t going to get the job done. What they really need is to be taken away somewhere and deprogrammed.
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It’s a big problem that there are so many kooks in the world. But learn to live with them? Surely you’re joking!
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As my late granddad used to say, “If words won’t get through that thick skull of yours, maybe me fists will!” :^)

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Posted: 23 September 2012 11:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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How can you become more tolerant of the religious?

Interesting question. You have no free will, that is the first thing. Secondly, the religious have no free will. You and they can be influenced by experiences but if you and they operate from the unconscious ‘doing’ mode of the brain then old thought patterns will mostly prevail. Understanding you have no free will, truly understanding it automatically generates compassion for others. That is not to adopt an attitude of ‘oh poor things, they believe in fairies’ but to simply accept the reality you are presented with.

The only thing to be done, in my view, is to make the logical, atheistic and spiritual teachings more prevalent in society and in the media where possible and let the truth filter slowly through. Religious people might try to force their ideas on others but that does not mean the spiritual atheist should fight back. What you resist persists. Allow it, but keep promoting the positive message of atheism and the illusion of free will and eventually (not in our life times) the rest of the world will find their enlightenment.

It is always a personal journey. Of the religious, remember what Jesus said, ‘they know not what they do’. It is a powerful message and possibly the most profound thing he was ever alleged to have said. Jesus would be a fan of Sam Harris smile

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Posted: 23 September 2012 02:13 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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robbiet - 23 September 2012 11:36 AM

How can you become more tolerant of the religious?


The only thing to be done, in my view, is to make the logical, atheistic and spiritual teachings more prevalent in society and in the media where possible and let the truth filter slowly through. Religious people might try to force their ideas on others but that does not mean the spiritual atheist should fight back. What you resist persists. Allow it, but keep promoting the positive message of atheism and the illusion of free will and eventually (not in our life times) the rest of the world will find their enlightenment.


A swing .........and a miss.
You strike at shadows.
You cannot try to “make the logical, atheistic and spiritual teachings more prevalent” simply because you have no free will.
And Jesus should have known that it was not our choice to “forgive them”.
Maybe, if there were a Jesus, he was a deluded as all the rest.

 

 

 

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Posted: 23 September 2012 02:44 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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toombaru - 23 September 2012 02:13 PM
robbiet - 23 September 2012 11:36 AM

How can you become more tolerant of the religious?


A swing .........and a miss.
You strike at shadows.
You cannot try to “make the logical, atheistic and spiritual teachings more prevalent” simply because you have no free will.
And Jesus should have known that it was not our choice to “forgive them”.
Maybe, if there were a Jesus, he was a deluded as all the rest.

 

 

Those who are compelled by their nature and their current state will ‘make the logical, atheistic and spiritual teachings more prevalent’ is what I mean by that. A lifetime of conditioning that I have free will can not be undone easily.

Jesus (if he existed) was compelled by his nature and his state at the time to produce the sound waves associated with the phrase I quoted. Since we are the product of our genetics, environmental conditioning and our chemical state at any given instant he may have influenced the conditioning of others with his words. He may have known they had no choice, indeed, it would be logical to assume that he did know; but perhaps he planted a seed in our consciousness that partly led us to scientific method and neuroscience in order to answer these questions a different way. Nature is simply unfolding our reality around and within us and thus our current collective delusion is as it is.

Maybe he was deluded but I imagine he stood out because he was simply enlightened and was compelled to conduct himself accordingly. That is the view I am compelled to have at this moment.

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Posted: 23 September 2012 06:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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robbiet - 23 September 2012 02:44 PM
toombaru - 23 September 2012 02:13 PM
robbiet - 23 September 2012 11:36 AM

How can you become more tolerant of the religious?


A swing .........and a miss.
You strike at shadows.
You cannot try to “make the logical, atheistic and spiritual teachings more prevalent” simply because you have no free will.
And Jesus should have known that it was not our choice to “forgive them”.
Maybe, if there were a Jesus, he was a deluded as all the rest.

 

 

Those who are compelled by their nature and their current state will ‘make the logical, atheistic and spiritual teachings more prevalent’ is what I mean by that. A lifetime of conditioning that I have free will can not be undone easily.

Jesus (if he existed) was compelled by his nature and his state at the time to produce the sound waves associated with the phrase I quoted. Since we are the product of our genetics, environmental conditioning and our chemical state at any given instant he may have influenced the conditioning of others with his words. He may have known they had no choice, indeed, it would be logical to assume that he did know; but perhaps he planted a seed in our consciousness that partly led us to scientific method and neuroscience in order to answer these questions a different way. Nature is simply unfolding our reality around and within us and thus our current collective delusion is as it is.

Maybe he was deluded but I imagine he stood out because he was simply enlightened and was compelled to conduct himself accordingly. That is the view I am compelled to have at this moment.

 

I suppose that is not a bad thing to have a role model.
But you might read the entire story before you use Jesus.
He said and did many things that might shock you.

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Posted: 23 September 2012 08:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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Gravel - 26 May 2011 08:56 AM

How can I become more tolerant?

My evolution of personal free thought has run what I consider to be a normal evolution.  I’ve gone from argumentative and forceful when confronted by persons of “faith” to almost not willing to argue with someone whom I consider to be incapable of critical thought.

But through this process I have not been able to give up my feeling of superiority in that I’ve reached the “right” conclusion regarding issues of theologies’ failure and defeat by science.  In fact I consider those that are religious but tolerant as lazy and those that are strongly religious as ignorant.  Even taking science out of the equation I find it very hard to understand how modern people can “believe” that religion and in my region “Christianity” is the way to go.  How can they buy into something so obviously attributed to ancient backwards thinking? 

I like to consider myself tolerant and empathetic but in this area I just cannot.  How can I achieve this without giving up my own desire to question and seek out truths?

I know what you feel.You’re in a place that they themselves call the place that needs enlightenment,I think you,yourself should start the beginning of their critical thinking,teach them what you know,then you,yourself will be like the God they worship,stained and unbelievable,that is a choice,or just stay who you are and watch them fool themselves.

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Posted: 24 September 2012 01:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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toombaru - 23 September 2012 06:17 PM
robbiet - 23 September 2012 02:44 PM
toombaru - 23 September 2012 02:13 PM
robbiet - 23 September 2012 11:36 AM

How can you become more tolerant of the religious?


 

I suppose that is not a bad thing to have a role model.
But you might read the entire story before you use Jesus.
He said and did many things that might shock you.

 

Jesus is not a role model for me. Role models lead to ego related suffering. We are as we are. What would be the point of a role model bearing in mind there is no free will?

He said some profound things. So does Sam Harris. So does Eckhart Tolle. So did Osho. So does Paulo Coelho and many many others. I’m sure all of them have said things that are equally pointless. No idol worship here my friend, just my own take on reality.

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Posted: 24 September 2012 01:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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Match your tolerance to that shown between Shiite & Sunni, or Protestant & Catholic, or Islamic & Judaist. After all, these are the best guides available for moral behavior…

But seriously, I wouldn’t worry about it. I know it’s depressing though.

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“Does history record any case in which the majority was right?”
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Posted: 05 October 2012 08:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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I refuse to suffer the fool.  Ridiculous statements are to be ridiculed.

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What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof.
~ Hitch

I prefer the full-on embrace of reality to the spiritual masturbation that is religion.
~ S.A. Ladoucier

I think the world is being much helped by the suffering of the poor people
~ M. Teresa, Fruitcake of Calcutta

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Posted: 08 October 2012 08:07 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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“I liked to consider myself tolerant and empathetic but in this area I just cannot.  How can I achieve this without giving up my own desire to question and seek out truths?


Gravel,

You can’t, don’t even try, disrespect has its time and place, as far as those desert religions are concerned, its long overdue. There is nothing wrong with you, there is on the other hand something pathological about adults having imaginary friends, a firm belief in the supernatural is not a sign of a healthy intellect. So, stay the course,  the alternative stands before you in arrogant self righteousness. HONK IF YOU LOVE JESUS—-lol!! .

[ Edited: 08 October 2012 08:09 PM by boagie]
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The Christian religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one.
David Hume

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Posted: 09 October 2012 11:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Gravel - 26 May 2011 08:56 AM

How can I become more tolerant?

My evolution of personal free thought has run what I consider to be a normal evolution.  I’ve gone from argumentative and forceful when confronted by persons of “faith” to almost not willing to argue with someone whom I consider to be incapable of critical thought.

But through this process I have not been able to give up my feeling of superiority in that I’ve reached the “right” conclusion regarding issues of theologies’ failure and defeat by science.  In fact I consider those that are religious but tolerant as lazy and those that are strongly religious as ignorant.  Even taking science out of the equation I find it very hard to understand how modern people can “believe” that religion and in my region “Christianity” is the way to go.  How can they buy into something so obviously attributed to ancient backwards thinking? 

I like to consider myself tolerant and empathetic but in this area I just cannot.  How can I achieve this without giving up my own desire to question and seek out truths?

I expect that you “are” tolerant. Do you go kill them? Do you call for their death? I doubt it.


Maybe you are no longer willing to try to persuade them. But I wouldn’t consider that as intolerant.


As to your question about “why don’t they get it?” I have an answer for you. I wrote an article about why people believe in God. Its requires some knowledge about psychology.

http://ramirustom.blogspot.com/2012/09/is-allah-real.html


To understand this problem better, you’ll need some more knowledge about psychology in general. Here is an exert from another article (http://ramirustom.blogspot.com/2012/09/psychology.html):


> [...] there is new research being done about what they (psychologists) call cognitive dissonance. The theory explains that when people are presented with a conflict of ideas, like where a new idea conflicts with one’s worldview, they experience a bad feeling, and so their subconscious attempts to relieve that bad feeling by rejecting the new idea thus resolving the conflict. Sometimes that rejection comes in the form of rationalizing (which means criticizing the new idea with bad explanations and immediately accepting that explanation as the truth without criticizing it). The presumption is that all people experience this bad feeling, meaning that it is part of human nature. But that is false. It’s a parochial mistake to generalize to the entire human population. So what is the qualitative difference between people that do and people that don’t feel bad when they experience a conflict of ideas?
>
> To answer that question, consider that cognitive dissonance is fundamentally no different than any other psychological problem. It’s about thinking errors. And how are they solved?  In the case of cognitive dissonance, the error is related to how one thinks about mistakes and exposing one’s mistakes. The people that experience cognitive dissonance think that mistakes are bad and that exposing one’s mistakes is shameful. And the people that don’t experience it don’t think that way. The reality is that exposing one’s mistakes is good. They are opportunities to correct one’s mistaken ideas. And by correcting one’s mistaken ideas, he gets smarter, becomes a better person, a better parent. A person who knows this feels great about finding his mistakes, whether he found it or someone else did. So he doesn’t subconsciously try to reject new ideas that conflict with his worldview.


So it comes down to philosophical sophistication. Critical thought is frowned upon in many societies. In these societies, a tradition of criticism does not exist. In the West, we have adopted a tradition of criticism since the start of the Enlightenment and Scientific Revolution. But even in the West, some families haven’t adopted a tradition of criticism, so its harder for these people to criticize their worldviews. Finally, even having adopted a tradition of criticism, people can be really creative in creating rationalizations that work to negate the criticisms of their most cherished ideas, like religion and God. So it requires some additional knowledge about how/why people rationalize and how to make sure one isn’t rationalizing.


Note that this doesn’t mean that people who don’t have all that knowledge can’t figure out on their own that God doesn’t exist. There is another way this can happen. Some people are presented with life-changing events. These situations are traumatic and they force people to think on their own. Sometimes people having experienced these situations will think critically about their worldview and will realize that religion and God is false.

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Posted: 23 October 2012 03:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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Gravel - 26 May 2011 08:56 AM

How can I become more tolerant?

My evolution of personal free thought has run what I consider to be a normal evolution.  I’ve gone from argumentative and forceful when confronted by persons of “faith” to almost not willing to argue with someone whom I consider to be incapable of critical thought.

But through this process I have not been able to give up my feeling of superiority in that I’ve reached the “right” conclusion regarding issues of theologies’ failure and defeat by science.  In fact I consider those that are religious but tolerant as lazy and those that are strongly religious as ignorant.  Even taking science out of the equation I find it very hard to understand how modern people can “believe” that religion and in my region “Christianity” is the way to go.  How can they buy into something so obviously attributed to ancient backwards thinking? 

I like to consider myself tolerant and empathetic but in this area I just cannot.  How can I achieve this without giving up my own desire to question and seek out truths?

According to Sam Harris, we have no free will, so our lives are the result of events that are ultimately not our responsibility. Understanding this, it is not to your credit that you are an atheist and understand the universe how it more or less is. Likewise it is not the theists fault that they believe in god. To their brain their belief system makes perfect sense.

As far as I understand, people’s actions are the result of 3 main factors; their genetics, their past experiences, and their brain’s ability to create new solutions to problems. Given this, past experiences are a large factor in determining the belief system for an individual. For the christian their past experiences have formed the world view in their brain that christianity makes perfect sense.

In this situation, to criticise and abuse people who have these beliefs is exactly the same as criticising you for being an atheist (aside from the fact that you have evidence to support your belief). It will most likely cause them to shut down and not listen to your argument. Likewise to belittle them makes no real sense (I see this a lot on the internet and I used to be guilty of it myself). The christians world view makes perfect sense to them. It certainly may be a case of them being lazy and not examining the evidence (after all being lazy is beneficent as far as evolution is concerned), and it may also be a case that they have just not been presented with the correct evidence, but rather have been presented with misinformation, as most religions specialise in spreading this.

It can also be the case that they are driven by genetics that make them susceptible to belief in religion. And it can also be the case that their brains are incapable of rationalising the evidence against their beliefs (solving the problem as it were).

So understanding this, a call for tolerance is necessary. To lose patience and become angry or to abandon the cause of education is not the way, however fruitless it may be from time to time.  However, there is also another side to the coin. There most certainly will be (as evolution predicts) people who full well know that religion is false and peddle those beliefs because it affords them a lifestyle that they would otherwise have to work for. These are the people that we need to out publicly for their behaviour and those who we must seek to hold accountable. It’s hard to be tolerant of these people because they are parasitizing others for their own benefit. Wherever lies exist, it will always be possible for people to take advantage of other people. I see this a lot where I live and it makes me angry. William Lane Craig would probably be an example of this, where as Ray Comfort strikes me as someone whose world view is genuine, although totally misguided.

[ Edited: 23 October 2012 03:22 PM by Geeseman]
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Posted: 22 November 2012 08:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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It is hard to be tolerant when the subject of that tolerance is paranoid. Come live in Texas and you will see what I mean. Tolerance involves understanding and if you understand Christianity, it is difficult to “suffer the fool”.


also ...................  Tolerance is a “Two Way Street”

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Posted: 22 November 2012 09:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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As far as the desert religions go, tolerance has become a withered, weed which threatens the garden, We quite simply, as citizens of the world cannot afford these child like fantasy which can turn violent on a dime. We must face the fact that humanity like it or not, needs to grow up [mentally]  if we are to survive. We simply cannot allow the most ignorant, the most child like among us to lead the way. As Martin Luther once said, reason is the enemy of faith, they lay it out for you, you just cannot afford to listen to these people babble and run for office. May Allah behead all those whom you do not like!!  Never suffer a witch to live, good grief people, its time, it is really time. Disrespect and intolerance is what is presently called for, if its laughable, laugh at it. To show tolerance for willful ignorance, is NOT a virtue.

[ Edited: 22 November 2012 09:18 AM by boagie]
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The Christian religion not only was at first attended with miracles, but even at this day cannot be believed by any reasonable person without one.
David Hume

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