1 of 2
1
Whilst I am strongly opposed to Sun Sign Astrology….I must
Posted: 17 June 2006 09:31 AM   [ Ignore ]  
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  765
Joined  2006-06-01

say that I have had continually positive experiences with real astrology, that is astrology incorporating longitude, latitude, the birth place and birthtime, what one would call a birth horoscope. Astrology uses mathematics and geometry to describe people and make statements about them. Sun sign astrology is a joke, far too general for a real analysis. Neither do I adhere to astrological prediction. I believe astrology in its full breadth (planets, hauses, time and coordinates) can offer much in way of personality analysis. Does anyone here study or deal with astrology in greater depth than the sun sign nonsense? Give me your opinions….

 Signature 

Get with it. Millions of galaxies of hundreds of millions of stars, and a speck on one in a blink. That’s us, lost in space. The cop, you, me… Who notices?
-Vincent

Profile
 
 
Posted: 19 June 2006 03:42 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  842
Joined  2006-02-19

I don’t need mathmatics, or longitudes, or whatever to descibe people or make statements about them. All you have to do is talk to them.

Stardusk, in your other post you have struck me as an intelligent person. Perhaps you can then explain to us why seemingly intelligent persons willingly believe in pseudo-scientific garbage such as astrology?

Seriously, why would the day, place and time of your birth affect your personallity on a mathmatical level? Granted, those thing will affect who you are, but I fail to see how who you will be should be mathmatically predicted from those variables.

Nor do I see how the planets and stars are to affect someone. It’s been shown that the nearest celestial body, the moon, has little to no influence on behavior. Indeed, the myth about increased crime during a full moon has been thoroughly debunked http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_337.html . If the closest extraterestrial source of gravity has no influnce, then how can those which are millions of miles away?

Even if they did, why wouldn’t their effects be felt by everyone? Why should Jupiter aligned with Mars (or what ever) only affect those in Aquarius (or which ever)? If these bodies are influencing our bodies, why are the effects not universal? Shouldn’t their gravity pull on everyone the same way, regardless of there date of birth?

And what power is affecting us? Gravity? Seems unlikely. Electro-magnetism? Reflections of solar energies? Radio waves? What power is being emited by the celestial bodies? It seems that, perhaps, we’ve fallen into the pitts of the paranormal again.

Seriously, why would you feel that there is any validity to astrology?

 Signature 

People have said that an infinite number of monkeys typing on an infinite number of keyboards would produce the works of Shakespeare, but the internet has shown this to be wrong.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 June 2006 12:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  452
Joined  2006-03-06

I’ve studied astrology on my own and I can say that if you believe you will “see” the “truth” in an personal chart. An astrological chart is very complicated and gives you lots of information. And because we are pattern seeking beings we only aknowledge what it matches with what we know. I made my chart, and for every planet that is in every sign or house there are at least a few paragraphs that explain it. So after reading like 4-5 pages with your description you will see some resemblence to what you know about yourself. And there are texts like “you had some issues with your father”, or “you feel closer to your mother” that are so general that the chance you end-up in that category are very high. Even though I abandoned studying astrology up to a point I still felt that it was truth in it.
Then I studied QiGong and Feng Shui and all seemed logical (I studied with a Grand Master that had a technical background and tried to explaine it “scientifically”). At that time it “understood” how the 5 elements work (fire, water, wood, air, metal). Then I bought a book about Feng Shui and started to learn and it seems impossible to find a cure (for a bad energy in your house) using just logic. For example you have a spot with “bad energy” produced by wood. You can use fire to burn the wood or metal to cut the wood. The problem is that usually in the wood area there are other energies, let’s say water that will put out the fire or weaken the metal. And this goes on an on.
Some Feng Shui advice are just common sense (eg: don’t place your house at the bottom of a vertical cliff) but the rest is just speculation. Pen and Teller made some investigations about Feng Shui: a house was presented to different Feng Shui Masters and all offered different cures.
I had good experience with Feng Shui though. I rearranged my bedroom and in 1 month found a better job and a got out of a bad relationship. I know a person that had a positive experience with Feng Shui.
Try reading this: “Sramsr this asrut sentence dfort has rtrsdyr a iiusrt meaning”. Have you seen the “truth”?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 June 2006 02:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  635
Joined  2005-02-06

Miller, you’re right, people tend to see what they want to see.

I had good experience with Feng Shui though. I rearranged my bedroom and in 1 month found a better job and a got out of a bad relationship.

I had good experience with bananas though. I ate bananas and in 1 month found a better job and a got out of a bad relationship.
Or was it my new cologne?
If one accepts the possibility that Feng Shui or bananas might have some effect, I am opening myself up to all kinds of errors of causality. Neither has any rational basis to affect my life, but when I allow the possibility I am likely to be fooled by coincidence. That’s what the scientific method is designed for….to keep us from fooling ourselves. Penn and Teller’s little demonstration should have convinced you that the practice is bunk.
Sometimes people just get what they want…most seem to credit prayer. Do you think that’s likely?

Rod

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 June 2006 03:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  452
Joined  2006-03-06

[quote author=“Rod”]If one accepts the possibility that Feng Shui or bananas might have some effect, I am opening myself up to all kinds of errors of causality. Neither has any rational basis to affect my life, but when I allow the possibility I am likely to be fooled by coincidence. That’s what the scientific method is designed for….to keep us from fooling ourselves. Penn and Teller’s little demonstration should have convinced you that the practice is bunk.
Sometimes people just get what they want…most seem to credit prayer. Do you think that’s likely?

No, I should have been more clear. I thought I had a good experience with Feng Shui. Now I know it had nothing to do with it. Well…. maybe it boosted my confidence a little but not the rearrangement of my badroom per se was the cause of all that. The Penn and Teller demonstration opened my eyes to be more skeptical about all those masters’ claims.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 June 2006 04:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  635
Joined  2005-02-06

I had a feeling that’s what you meant.
Later, Rod

Profile
 
 
Posted: 21 June 2006 11:59 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  765
Joined  2006-06-01

[quote author=“Celsus”]I don’t need mathmatics, or longitudes, or whatever to descibe people or make statements about them. All you have to do is talk to them.

Stardusk, in your other post you have struck me as an intelligent person. Perhaps you can then explain to us why seemingly intelligent persons willingly believe in pseudo-scientific garbage such as astrology?

Seriously, why would the day, place and time of your birth affect your personallity on a mathmatical level? Granted, those thing will affect who you are, but I fail to see how who you will be should be mathmatically predicted from those variables.

Nor do I see how the planets and stars are to affect someone. It’s been shown that the nearest celestial body, the moon, has little to no influence on behavior. Indeed, the myth about increased crime during a full moon has been thoroughly debunked http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_337.html . If the closest extraterestrial source of gravity has no influnce, then how can those which are millions of miles away?

Even if they did, why wouldn’t their effects be felt by everyone? Why should Jupiter aligned with Mars (or what ever) only affect those in Aquarius (or which ever)? If these bodies are influencing our bodies, why are the effects not universal? Shouldn’t their gravity pull on everyone the same way, regardless of there date of birth?

And what power is affecting us? Gravity? Seems unlikely. Electro-magnetism? Reflections of solar energies? Radio waves? What power is being emited by the celestial bodies? It seems that, perhaps, we’ve fallen into the pitts of the paranormal again.

Seriously, why would you feel that there is any validity to astrology?

Well I do think critically and I can say, much as miller has pointed out that subjectively I have found astrology astoundingly helpful. I emphasize subjectively because if one does choose to study astrology it must be done contexually….

 Signature 

Get with it. Millions of galaxies of hundreds of millions of stars, and a speck on one in a blink. That’s us, lost in space. The cop, you, me… Who notices?
-Vincent

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 June 2006 12:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  765
Joined  2006-06-01

I have already posted something about anitdepressants. My objection to modern psychology is its overreliance on bio-chemical explanations of thigns. It very rarely takes into account personality traits that may be the result of social upbringing and situationally based. I find this problematic. Human being are more than just bags and sacks of hormones and bio-chemistry. If we are to be humanists we need to take the whole context into account…

 Signature 

Get with it. Millions of galaxies of hundreds of millions of stars, and a speck on one in a blink. That’s us, lost in space. The cop, you, me… Who notices?
-Vincent

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 June 2006 03:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2821
Joined  2005-04-29

Stardusk, humanity has inherited a history rich with wild guesses about most everything. Think about all the religious traditions, including occult practices; all the thousands or millions of philosphical trends that sought to answer ultimate questions. Do you see any one of them as being valid?

Psychology does very much take into account personality factors. It analyzes and tabulates many cognitive-based criteria. Keep in mind that cognitive science is broad. It includes many fields, some concerned more with chemistry and others concerned more with philosophical flavor.

Also keep in mind that for many thousands of years, supernatural powers have been evoked as a way of controlling others. Humanism should be very concerned about those who continue to evoke ancient nonsense.

 Signature 

Philosophy may in no way interfere with the actual use of language; it can in the end only describe it. For it cannot give it any foundations either. It leaves everything as it is.
Ludwig Wittgenstein

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 June 2006 04:36 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  635
Joined  2005-02-06

Stardusk,
Try to be consistent now. Is it, “personality traits that may be the result of social upbringing and situationally based”, or are they predestined in the star charts?
You said, “Human being are more than just bags and sacks of hormones and bio-chemistry.” Actually we’re not…it’s just that there are grander things to ponder, such as personality, that are emergent qualities of this bag of organic chemistry. The chemistry is important to many pathological psychiatric conditions such as depression. Why should we not place great emphasis on treating this…since indeed we can treat it? Depression is much more lethal than, say, narcissistic personality disorder, hence the emphasis on its’ treatment. It seems you are simply lamenting that adjustment and personality disorders are not taken as seriously. Truth be known, most people with these disorders are not inclined to think they are abnormal and do not seek treatment…they just continue to add to all the dysfunction out there.

We just don’t live in a perfect world where everybody’s situation is pleasant and we all have rational supportive friends for our times of need. Psychology/psychiatry can’t be blamed for this. Society simply couldn’t afford to provide professional help to everybody who might need it…and many who need it don’t want it.

Rod

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 June 2006 05:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2338
Joined  2006-02-19

I disagree. In the atheistic deterministic world it seems that the position of the stars could play a major role in who we are. We are not but a predetermined effect of many predetermined causes. Whose to say which causes are the most important and who are you to prejedge the causes. I believe a more holistic approach is necessary. It seems that the relationship of any chance event is paramount to who we are. I believe the geometrical relationship between ursa minor and ursa major in December of 67 is one of the defining factors of my life. I am sure that the more I study those causes the more I will know about my predetermined future. It’s very obvious. Its all ball bearings these days

[ Edited: 22 June 2006 06:15 AM by ]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 June 2006 05:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  635
Joined  2005-02-06

Frankr,
It must feel free to live in your world where you can say things that are not bounded by rationality.

Rod

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 June 2006 06:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2338
Joined  2006-02-19

Rod
Where were you in December of 67? I am sure that bit information will lead me to the answer of what is going to happen to me next tuesday and why I am partial to Ben and Jerry’s Half Baked. I need answers.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 22 June 2006 06:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  765
Joined  2006-06-01

[quote author=“Rod”]Stardusk,
Try to be consistent now. Is it, “personality traits that may be the result of social upbringing and situationally based”, or are they predestined in the star charts?
You said, “Human being are more than just bags and sacks of hormones and bio-chemistry.” Actually we’re not…it’s just that there are grander things to ponder, such as personality, that are emergent qualities of this bag of organic chemistry. The chemistry is important to many pathological psychiatric conditions such as depression. Why should we not place great emphasis on treating this…since indeed we can treat it? Depression is much more lethal than, say, narcissistic personality disorder, hence the emphasis on its’ treatment. It seems you are simply lamenting that adjustment and personality disorders are not taken as seriously. Truth be known, most people with these disorders are not inclined to think they are abnormal and do not seek treatment…they just continue to add to all the dysfunction out there.

We just don’t live in a perfect world where everybody’s situation is pleasant and we all have rational supportive friends for our times of need. Psychology/psychiatry can’t be blamed for this. Society simply couldn’t afford to provide professional help to everybody who might need it…and many who need it don’t want it.

Rod

We are dealing with a much more dangerous idea that you are getting into here.  The idea that depression or sadness are not by any means ‘normal’ reactions to situations. IN the modern world we even regard the sorrow caused by the death of a close person as abberant and to be extirpated. Life is quite naturally about ups and downs and what the Buddhists say is true the only constant is change. I’ve tried meds in my life and they caused me more problems than helping.  Fact is what ever the problem principles of causation are rarely if ever only chemical. This book is quite interesting….
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1592400671/103-8408879-2423039?v=glance&n=283155

towards an understanding of this…

 Signature 

Get with it. Millions of galaxies of hundreds of millions of stars, and a speck on one in a blink. That’s us, lost in space. The cop, you, me… Who notices?
-Vincent

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 June 2006 06:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  635
Joined  2005-02-06

Stardusk,
It is not the opinion of the medical mainstream that grief or sadness is not a normal process. It is true that many seek pharmacological relief in some situations that is not appropriate…and some physicians use meds inappropriately. Our society does seem to want a pill to fix everything.

The DSM IV is also an interesting book. It’s on-line. Check out the appropriate uses of medication for the diagnosis of depression. I think you’ll find it reasonable.

Actually, the treatment of depression was the most satisfying thing I did in my practice. I couldn’t cure diabetes or cardiovascular disease. I could cure depression in many cases and these were my most grateful patients. Sorry you seem to have had a problem. Not everyone responds as hoped. That goes for all meds.

Rod

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 June 2006 07:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
Administrator
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  765
Joined  2006-06-01

[quote author=“Rod”]Stardusk,
It is not the opinion of the medical mainstream that grief or sadness is not a normal process. It is true that many seek pharmacological relief in some situations that is not appropriate…and some physicians use meds inappropriately. Our society does seem to want a pill to fix everything.

The DSM IV is also an interesting book. It’s on-line. Check out the appropriate uses of medication for the diagnosis of depression. I think you’ll find it reasonable.

Actually, the treatment of depression was the most satisfying thing I did in my practice. I couldn’t cure diabetes or cardiovascular disease. I could cure depression in many cases and these were my most grateful patients. Sorry you seem to have had a problem. Not everyone responds as hoped. That goes for all meds.

Rod

Are you a medical doctor?

 Signature 

Get with it. Millions of galaxies of hundreds of millions of stars, and a speck on one in a blink. That’s us, lost in space. The cop, you, me… Who notices?
-Vincent

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 2
1
 
RSS 2.0     Atom Feed