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Southern Baptist leader admits people are born gay…
Posted: 16 March 2007 04:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 31 ]  
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Mia wrote:

So, assuming animals are currently unaware that they’re acting in a homosexual way. . . what are you suggesting would compel them to stop doing it if they were to become aware? If it was “natural behavior” for them before, what would now make them feel it’s unnatural?

Animals are unaware that they are acting homosexually. I’m not saying they would stop even if they realized it. The second question is hard to answer because we’re talking about animals and not people.  The point is that animals adapt behaviors over time that ensure their survival. Same sex sex is not one of them.

Honestly, I believe homosexuality is a symptom of civilization. Just like an assortment of other harmful things: drug and alcohol abuse, diseases, famines, war, etc. Pornography perverts the mind and so does sexual molestation. The media perverts minds as well. As we grow up we are exposed to all of this stuff and it makes us who we are.

Whether someone “chooses” to be gay or is “born” that way…you know, who am I to make that determination.  But all I want to get across is that to say there is no choice and that we are predestined to be a certain way is to rob us of the chance to be the way we were meant to be. And any way you slice it, you cannot say that men were “meant” to be with men.

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Posted: 16 March 2007 04:34 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 32 ]  
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Honestly, I believe homosexuality is a symptom of civilization. Just like an assortment of other harmful things: drug and alcohol abuse, diseases, famines, war, etc. Pornography perverts the mind and so does sexual molestation. The media perverts minds as well. As we grow up we are exposed to all of this stuff and it makes us who we are.

Is there any logical justification in your assertion that same-gender love is “harmful” or a “perversion”, comparable to drug or alchohol abuse?

Why does love become “evil” when the body parts are similar?

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Posted: 16 March 2007 05:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 33 ]  
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[quote author=“Bad_Conduct”]Where is the evidence?

This is an opportunity for you to learn something about the burden of proof, B.C.  You made a very bald assertion, “There is no physical difference.”  You didn’t express skepticism, you didn’t say, for example, “I think the research is incoclusive.”  You just made this very arrogant assertion, as if you had done the research and discovered that there are absolutely no physical differences between the brains of homosexuals and those of heterosexuals.

You could have said, “Well if homosexuality is a choice, then there must be physical brain differences.”  But you didn’t even do that.  You just arrogantly asserted that there are no differences.  Of course, even to suggest that there must be brain differences is a little bit ignorant. Neuroscience is not even that close to explaining any brain differences that exist between men and women.  So, at this point in time, to expect there to be strong, indisputible evidence of brain structure differences between heterosexuals and homosexuals is really quite an unwarranted expectation.

Since you were the one to make the bold assertion, it is incumbent upon you to provide the evidence.

For my own part, I fail to understand why one would think that homosexuality is a choice given that there is no reason to believe that heterosexuality is a choice.  Heterosexuals no more choose their sexual orientation that homosexuals.

But, more importantly, it really doesn’t matter whether it is a choice or not.  There is nothing wrong with loving another person.  There is nothing wrong with choosing to spend one’s life with a partner of the same gender. Period.

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What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price.
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Posted: 16 March 2007 05:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 34 ]  
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Is there any logical justification in your assertion that same-gender love is “harmful” or a “perversion”, comparable to drug or alchohol abuse?

Why does love become “evil” when the body parts are similar?

You can word it like that to make it sound trivial but its not.  What is harmful about it is how it destroys families. I’ve seen a letter from a heartbroken mom to her gay son which was actually really sad. I don’t remember word for word what she wrote, but you could tell his homosexuality had really taken its toll on her and his father.

Its not harmless folks.

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Posted: 16 March 2007 05:20 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 35 ]  
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[quote author=“rogerflat”]

Is there any logical justification in your assertion that same-gender love is “harmful” or a “perversion”, comparable to drug or alchohol abuse?

Why does love become “evil” when the body parts are similar?

You can word it like that to make it sound trivial but its not.  What is harmful about it is how it destroys families. I’ve seen a letter from a heartbroken mom to her gay son which was actually really sad. I don’t remember word for word what she wrote, but you could tell his homosexuality had really taken its toll on her and his father.

Its not harmless folks.

Isn’t the harm here created by the fact that the parents won’t accept their son’s behavior? But you are saying that the harm comes from the homsexual son.  When in fact it is pretty clear that if people gave up their irrational prejudices, all of this harm you cite would disappear.

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What do I care for a hell for oppressors? What good can hell do, since those children have already been tortured? And what becomes of harmony, if there is hell? I want to forgive. I want to embrace. I don’t want more suffering. And if the sufferings of children go to swell the sum of sufferings which was necessary to pay for truth, then I protest that the truth is not worth such a price.
-Ivan Karamazov

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Posted: 16 March 2007 05:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 36 ]  
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Isn’t the harm here created by the fact that the parents won’t accept their son’s behavior? But you are saying that the harm comes from the homsexual son. When in fact it is pretty clear that if people gave up their irrational prejudices, all of this harm you cite would disappear.

To an extent maybe. But when you raise your only child hoping that they will be happily married and give you grandchildren, and then they end up being gay…it is a major disappointment.

Also, the fact that society has NOT fully adjusted to homosexuality is the very reason that it puts a strain on families. Imagine how this mother feels when she has to explain that her son is gay.  She may never have intended for him to be like that, nor wanted him to be that way, but yet she has to bare the embarassment and shame of it. Sure, the son might not feel ashamed but the rest of his family does.  It’s not that whether its right for them to feel ashamed, maybe they should be proud. But the point is that they do and therefore it is harmful to them.

I don’t have any problem with people being gay, but I don’t like being around them.  I’m sorry, I don’t think its cute for some guy to act flambouyantly gay around me. Sorry, not impressed.  I would not feel comfortable if my son came home for the holidays with his boyfriend acting that way in front of our extended family.  Nor would this woman, and therein lies my point.

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Posted: 16 March 2007 05:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 37 ]  
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[quote author=“rogerflat”]
To an extent maybe. But when you raise your only child hoping that they will be happily married and give you grandchildren, and then they end up being gay…it is a major disappointment.

This is an awful statement. Are kids just tools to accomplish what you want?

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Posted: 16 March 2007 05:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 38 ]  
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Are kids just tools to accomplish what you want?

No, but god forbid a parent take pride and enjoyment in hoping that they’re child has children of their own one day and gives them grandchildren. God forbid they have expectations that their child grows up the way   of the rest of the population does and has a opposite sex partner.

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Posted: 16 March 2007 05:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 39 ]  
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You can word it like that to make it sound trivial

I’m not playing somantic games.  I’m just using very plain language.

We live in a society that feels love is evil when the body parts are similar.  It sounds silly when it’s put that way but that is what it is. 

 

Having fallen in love on different occassions, I can tell you that the feelings are the same regardless of the gender.  The only difference is with body parts and some subtle distinctions in the physical mechanics. 

What is harmful about it is how it destroys families.

I’d say prejudice is to blame here. 

I don’t have any problem with people being gay, but I don’t like being around them. I’m sorry, I don’t think its cute for some guy to act flambouyantly gay around me. Sorry, not impressed.

Well, the same rules should apply to everyone.  Indecent exposure, stalking or harrassment are unacceptable behaviors regardless of the gender but I suspect that’s not what you’re talking about, is it?

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Posted: 16 March 2007 06:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 40 ]  
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Clearly, rogerflat, you have no experience with homosexuality outside of what you perceive it to be.  Your perception may be your reality, but it is not true for me.  I’ve lived, worked, am neighbors with, and am directly and indirectly related to gays, and none of these people are anything like you describe.  As one gay friend put it, imagine you’re at a business luncheon and you overhear, “I really like rogerflat, and he does a great job, is reliable, and has been successful in building his company, but. . . he’s straight. . . “

A disappointment?  Since when is a child required to bring happiness to a parent?

Try replacing your words “gay” or “homosexual” with “retarded”, “dark skinned”, “Polish” or any other human condition which is inborn and see how you look to me.  You are not required to like homosexuals, but your bigotry towards them as a whole shows an ugliness on par with all other bigots.

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Posted: 16 March 2007 06:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 41 ]  
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Try replacing your words “gay” or “homosexual” with “retarded”, “dark skinned”, “Polish” or any other human condition which is inborn and see how you look to me. You are not required to like homosexuals, but your bigotry towards them as a whole shows an ugliness on par with all other bigots.

Excellent point, Skipshot. 

Using Roger’s analogy, it would sound racist to replace “mom upset finding out her son is gay” to “mom upset finding out her son is going to marry a black woman.”  He might use same reasoning to blame inter-racial dating on the stress “it caused” to this family when really the culprit is prejudice.  Classic case of blaming the victim.

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Posted: 16 March 2007 06:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 42 ]  
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You guys aren’t listening. Don’t turn this into a black and white argument. Look at the shades of gray for a moment.

I’m not saying to disown or stop loving your child for being gay. But I am saying that there is justification for being dissapointed in having a child who ends up gay. I don’t hold against a parent for feeling bad about it.

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Posted: 16 March 2007 06:54 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 43 ]  
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You guys aren’t listening. Don’t turn this into a black and white argument. Look at the shades of gray for a moment.

I’m not saying to disown or stop loving your child for being gay. But I am saying that there is justification for being dissapointed in having a child who ends up gay. I don’t hold against a parent for feeling bad about it.

Roger,

How about the “disappointment” the mother in the altered scenerio might feel?  She won’t have “white” grandchildren because her son married a black woman.  Maybe she won’t disown or stop loving her son for loving a black woman but is she justified in feeling disappointed that her son turned out to be an “afrosexual”? 

Other than replacing body parts with skin color, what’s the difference?

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Posted: 16 March 2007 07:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 44 ]  
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Roger,

How about the “disappointment” the mother in the altered scenerio might feel? She won’t have “white” grandchildren because her son married a black woman. Maybe she won’t disown or stop loving her son for loving a black woman but is she justified in feeling disappointed that her son turned out to be an “afrosexual”?

Other than replacing body parts with skin color, what’s the difference?

This is the best rebuttal yet, and made me re-think my position. In this case, I could also understand a parents potential disappointment. (Again, doesn’t make it right.) However, the reasons might vary as a result of racist opinions and not the fact that they will be deprived of grandchildren or embarassed about their child’s choice in the gender of their partner.

But see the argument has now progressed from what it started as which was gayness being a choice. Now it is about a parent’s right to be disappointed by their gay child and the criteria in which to judge them on that, which is the superficiality of skin color, body parts, etc.

I guess my point is that you can’t be “born gay” just like you can’t be “born to breed outside your own race.” You choose to do that yourself.  Sexual prefernce, whether it is a choice in skin color or body parts, is a CHOICE.

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Posted: 16 March 2007 07:39 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 45 ]  
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It’s interesting to find connections with people and then realize how different they are.

Roger, you seem to have some strongly mistconstrued notions, and I’m thinking that perhaps there’s more personal sh** involved here than we know. 

And that you’re “not impressed” with flambuoyant behavior….who the hell is out to impress you?  I have more than a few straight male friends who are somewhat effeminate. Would they “not impress” you?  I’m more masculine then them. Would you not want to hang around me anyway? Think about what you say, the choices you make, and really examine why you feel the way you do.  Because all your arguments amount to squat so far.  So I’m guessing it’s extremely personal.

Know yourself. Then. open your mind and ducate yourself.

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