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How then shall we live?
Posted: 21 May 2007 09:59 PM   [ Ignore ]  
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Do you ever wonder why a President is sworn in the way he is?  Why do we place our hand on the Bible when we are giving our oath that our testimony is true and without error?  That answer is simple:  We do this because we are recognizing that there is a law is king, not that the king is law.  The Magna Carta called a king to a standard that is outside of him.  Kings and rulers are subject to God and His law. 

Nelson Glect, great Jewish archaeologist says that we he goes on a dig, he takes a topographical map of Israel, and he takes the Old Testament.  If the Bible say its there, then its there.  History says there is a Ur of the Chaldeans, dig and you will find it, and we did.  Nineva, dig, and find it.  City of Petra, dig, and you will find it.  Morally, historically, and archaeologically, it all lines up. 

But we still consider the Bible myth.  Why?  Because the "theory" of evolution challenged the Biblical creation.  And its all been speculation.  Philosophy, in its very nature, is speculative.  And guess where we end up?  Shirley McClain.  The speculation about the nature of the Bible thinks that we have found the body of Jesus.  Where?  Speculations, but all well received.  Now, who lives in delusion? 

Man now takes on the part of God because of the 20th century.  It is true, because you think its true to you.

Our worldview has changed.  But from where I stand, speculation is just that.  We remove God, and we make US, humans the end product of the theory called evolution.  And it has happened in this country. 

So how now shall we live?  God, please tarry long so that we may understand that we have distorted your creation, and replaced God with man.

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Posted: 22 May 2007 02:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
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Do you ever wonder why a President is sworn in the way he is? Why do we place our hand on the Bible when we are giving our oath that our testimony is true and without error? That answer is simple:

They might take the job seriously if they swear on a symbol of something they really believe in. I would have to use just my palm.

Nineva, dig, and find it. City of Petra, dig, and you will find it.

Dinosaurs? Dig and you will find them. Death before man? Found it.

Morally, historically, and archaeologically, it all lines up.

Hello? Hello in there?

We remove God, and we make US, humans the end product of the theory called evolution.

Who said end product?

So how now shall we live? God, please tarry long so that we may understand that we have distorted your creation, and replaced God with man.

So far, so good. Now let’s finish the job.


What am I doing here? I’m lost. Hey Salt, I don’t know how you handle this stuff. It’s like you’re talking into a great darkness… like when you find yourself talking to someone’s answering machine!

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Posted: 22 May 2007 02:58 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
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Saying that people are subject to God’s law is like building a house on sand, since the various religions have different and often contradictory claims for what God’s law is supposed to be. All these claims are on an equal footing as to their lack of proof. Anyone can say anything and claim that the words came from a supreme being, and there is no reason to believe someone who makes such a claim.

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Posted: 22 May 2007 03:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
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Damn ... yet another thread that should amount to the OP only ...

Byron

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“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

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Posted: 22 May 2007 03:33 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
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[quote author=“nothingbutthebloodofjesus”]But we still consider the Bible myth.  Why?  Because the “theory” of evolution challenged the Biblical creation.  And its all been speculation.  Philosophy, in its very nature, is speculative.

 

We consider the Bible myth because we have come to realize after a couple of millenia that the Bible is merely a collections of stories and rantings by a lot of superstitious tribesmen. The timelines, geography and conclusions drawn in the Bible are all demonstrably false or at best grossly inaccurate.

The “theory” of evolution is probably one of the most well supported and accepted theories in science. Get over it and accept it. There is no speculation about the factual basis of evolution. Many people a lot smarter and more educated than you and I have subjected it to pretty strenuous examination and have failed to prove it to be false in a any general principles. Just because it would seem to reduce your religious “theories” of creation to no more than steaming pile of excrement, does not make it any less true.

Philosohphy and evolution are in no way related. One is the study of that which purely cerebral the other is the study of that which is purely physical.

[quote author=“nothingbutthebloodofjesus”]And guess where we end up?  Shirley McClain.  The speculation about the nature of the Bible thinks that we have found the body of Jesus.  Where?  Speculations, but all well received.  Now, who lives in delusion?

And how, might I ask, are the rantings of Shirley McClain any more or less credible than those of the Bible, it’s proponents and it’s adherents who truly believe in angels, demons, spirits, Hell, the Devil, Satan, Serebin, Serephim, and a “loving” God who has in the past and continues to be responsible for the most deadly calamities and horrors even visited on his “children?”

[quote author=“nothingbutthebloodofjesus”]Man now takes on the part of God because of the 20th century.  It is true, because you think its true to you.

Man, at least some of us,  has come to realize that his fate is in his own hands, not in those of some mystical deity. That is the truth.

[quote author=“nothingbutthebloodofjesus”]Our worldview has changed.  But from where I stand, speculation is just that.  We remove God, and we make US, humans the end product of the theory called evolution.  And it has happened in this country.

 

Our worldview has changed because our world has changed, or at least because we became aware that the world we thought we lived in is not the one we truly inhabit. Over the last few thousand years we have learned, to the continuous resistance of religion, that the world is not flat, that is is not the center of the universe, that it rotates on it’s axis, that it’s orbits the sun, that there are other planets which orbit the sun, that the sun is only one of a few hundred billion suns in our galaxy, which is in turn only one of a few hundred billion galaxies visible in the universe. Every time we discover more about the world, God’s relevance has been more removed from that world. That is the process by which our knowledge grows. That which was not true or valid is replaced by that which can be demonstrated to better explain the world we live in. It’s a natural precess.

[quote author=“nothingbutthebloodofjesus”]So how now shall we live?  God, please tarry long so that we may understand that we have distorted your creation, and replaced God with man.

We should live by accepting that we only have one life, that which we are endowed with at birth. We should live that life by endeavoring to be a good person, treat others with respect, compassion and humility. We should live in the knowledge that the world we inhabit is the one which our descendants will inherit, and that we should leave it better than it was when we inherited it. We should live knowing that we alone are responsible for our destiny, and that some mystical god is not going to descend from the sky and save us from ourselves. Our destiny is in our hands and our hands alone.

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“We have it recorded in a book called the Bible.”

To be blunt, the Bible records all manner of silly shit.

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Posted: 22 May 2007 06:11 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
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Anyone who’s spent any length of time on this forum comes to appreciate that the real attraction is the pleasingly high level of discourse between various atheists and the honest and lucid pursuit of answers to sometimes complex philosophical questions.

The believers’ contributions are invariably that of light-relief. They rarely if ever have anything germane to add and are seemingly immune to reasoned argument. You won’t get them to change their views - no matter how reasonable or profound you are - because the religious urge is not satisfied (or caused) by reason. There’s nothing any of us could say that would outweigh the feeling of security that comes from believing that when they die they’ll get to hang out with their friends and family on a cloud.

And so…with that said, I must confess that nothingbutthebloodofjesus is one of my favourite posters. Always comedy gold and utterly proof against logic.
Welcome back, sparky.

[ Edited: 22 May 2007 07:22 AM by ]
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All Christians should be sent to heaven immediately.

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Posted: 22 May 2007 06:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
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[quote author=“Occam’s Razor”]There’s nothing any of us could say that would outweigh the feeling of security that comes from believing that when they die they’ll get to hang out with their friends and family on a cloud.

The problem is that they believe the rest of us deserve to suffer for eternity, simply because our view conflicts with theirs. I interpret that as an attempt to control people mentally and emotionally.

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Posted: 22 May 2007 07:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
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how then shall we live?

Well, if you would have your way, you would want everyone to live according to how you view the world.

NBTBOJ, you never actually directly addressed how it is that you are so sure that the blood of Jesus saves you.  You can’t know this with any more certainty than the eastern religions do concerning elnlightenment found in the reincarnation process.

So what is it?  Resurrection or Reincarnation?  And how can you tell me that you are any more certain than those who dismiss your resurrection and embrace reincarnation?  By what means?  What method do you use to determine your dogmatic assertion really is the true one?

Noggin

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Posted: 22 May 2007 07:45 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
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[quote author=“Noggin”]NBTBOJ

I prefer “Nothing Unless The Jesus Offers Blood”, or NUTJOB.

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Posted: 22 May 2007 07:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
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[quote author=“Carstonio”][quote author=“Occam’s Razor”]There’s nothing any of us could say that would outweigh the feeling of security that comes from believing that when they die they’ll get to hang out with their friends and family on a cloud.

The problem is that they believe the rest of us deserve to suffer for eternity, simply because our view conflicts with theirs. I interpret that as an attempt to control people mentally and emotionally.

If that’s the type of witnessing you are hearing, then you got it wrong about how we feel.  We believe that ALL of us, not just YOU, deserve an eternal separation from God.  And nobody should go around trying to shove hell down your throat.  If thats all I believe in God for, is the avoidance of hell, than I’m out.  That’s no reason whatsoever to believe.  You use the terms “the rest of us” as if we all go around telling you that you deserve hell.  If that’s what you’re hearing, then I apologize for that.  That should not be the central message in anyone trying to witness to you.

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Posted: 22 May 2007 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
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[quote author=“nothingbutthebloodofjesus”] You use the terms “the rest of us” as if we all go around telling you that you deserve hell.  If that’s what you’re hearing, then I apologize for that.  That should not be the central message in anyone trying to witness to you.

Do you see what you’ve just done?  You’ve essentially claimed “Whatever ELSE you’re hearing about god is false messaging; I’VE got the real truth.”

This is the problem with faith, and it’s why religious moderation is no solution.  If YOU get to define your faith as anything you’d like, then the same right must be afforded to anyone else.  Your ‘holy’ scripture is just words on a page; there is nothing inherently ‘holy’ about the words unless you (or someone else with a slightly different take on things) say so.

You’ll find that that “...but that’s not MY faith…” argument doesn’t fly around these parts.  Until you are ready to subject your faith to the light of reason, and abandon it if it conflicts with that which is demonstrably true, then your version of Christianity is no different (in literal, if not moral terms) than anyone elses.

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Posted: 22 May 2007 08:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
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[quote author=“edge100”][quote author=“nothingbutthebloodofjesus”] You use the terms “the rest of us” as if we all go around telling you that you deserve hell.  If that’s what you’re hearing, then I apologize for that.  That should not be the central message in anyone trying to witness to you.

Do you see what you’ve just done?  You’ve essentially claimed “Whatever ELSE you’re hearing about god is false messaging; I’VE got the real truth.”

This is the problem with faith, and it’s why religious moderation is no solution.  If YOU get to define your faith as anything you’d like, then the same right must be afforded to anyone else.  Your ‘holy’ scripture is just words on a page; there is nothing inherently ‘holy’ about the words unless you (or someone else with a slightly different take on things) say so.

You’ll find that that “...but that’s not MY faith…” argument doesn’t fly around these parts.  Until you are ready to subject your faith to the light of reason, and abandon it if it conflicts with that which is demonstrably true, then your version of Christianity is no different (in literal, if not moral terms) than anyone elses.

Exactly, all true Christians believe the same central theology.  Yes, we can disagree on Arminianism vs. Calvinism, predestination vs. free will, but we all believe in the power of Jesus’ death and resurrection, his atonement for our sins, and the sanctification when we accept Him as our Savior.  That’s why I Timothy says to “test the spirits.”  That’s what other Christians do, we see if there view of salvation lines up with ours.  That’s how you can tell if someone believes.  We can’t be a Christian and not believe in the virgin birth.  We can’t be Christians and not believe in the divinity of Christ, his theoanthropic qualities, and we can’t believe that Jesus is not God.  If you hear anyone say any of these things, they are not Christians.  So, you can say that millions of other people believe this way and that, and that helps your argument none.  Yes, there are things that can be argued in the Christian faith, but you CANNOT argue the central truth about Jesus and be a Christian.  There is but one way.

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Posted: 22 May 2007 08:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
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[quote author=“nothingbutthebloodofjesus”]We believe that ALL of us, not just YOU, deserve an eternal separation from God.

Please stop having any religious belief that includes me or anyone but yourself. If you believe that you yourself deserve that eternal separation, than fine. But don’t define other people based on your religion. Passing judgment on yourself doesn’t make it OK to pass judgment on others.

[quote author=“nothingbutthebloodofjesus”]You use the terms “the rest of us” as if we all go around telling you that you deserve hell.  If that’s what you’re hearing, then I apologize for that.  That should not be the central message in anyone trying to witness to you.

Admittedly, most Christians don’t go around saying that to others. It’s happened to me three of four times during my life. But when it happens, I become enraged. Not because of any belief I might have about hell, but because I’m being told in effect that I don’t deserve to live, and that would enrage anyone. Please stop caring about what I might believe about the supernatural or the afterlife, because that should not be anyone else’s concern.

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Posted: 22 May 2007 08:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
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[quote author=“Salt Creek”][quote author=“Noggin”]NBTBOJ

I prefer “Nothing Unless The Jesus Offers Blood”, or NUTJOB.

Nothing Unusual To Show A Christian Krapping

or NUTSACK

An acronym usually employed when a Christian tries to feel (care) too much about where I am heading after death.  Is a Christian testifying to you about how Jesus Saves?  Well, you’ve just been NUTSACKed!!

Noggin

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Posted: 22 May 2007 08:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
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[quote author=“nothingbutthebloodofjesus”][quote author=“edge100”][quote author=“nothingbutthebloodofjesus”] You use the terms “the rest of us” as if we all go around telling you that you deserve hell.  If that’s what you’re hearing, then I apologize for that.  That should not be the central message in anyone trying to witness to you.

Do you see what you’ve just done?  You’ve essentially claimed “Whatever ELSE you’re hearing about god is false messaging; I’VE got the real truth.”

This is the problem with faith, and it’s why religious moderation is no solution.  If YOU get to define your faith as anything you’d like, then the same right must be afforded to anyone else.  Your ‘holy’ scripture is just words on a page; there is nothing inherently ‘holy’ about the words unless you (or someone else with a slightly different take on things) say so.

You’ll find that that “...but that’s not MY faith…” argument doesn’t fly around these parts.  Until you are ready to subject your faith to the light of reason, and abandon it if it conflicts with that which is demonstrably true, then your version of Christianity is no different (in literal, if not moral terms) than anyone elses.

Exactly, all true Christians believe the same central theology.  Yes, we can disagree on Arminianism vs. Calvinism, predestination vs. free will, but we all believe in the power of Jesus’ death and resurrection, his atonement for our sins, and the sanctification when we accept Him as our Savior.  That’s why I Timothy says to “test the spirits.”  That’s what other Christians do, we see if there view of salvation lines up with ours.  That’s how you can tell if someone believes.  We can’t be a Christian and not believe in the virgin birth.  We can’t be Christians and not believe in the divinity of Christ, his theoanthropic qualities, and we can’t believe that Jesus is not God.  If you hear anyone say any of these things, they are not Christians.  So, you can say that millions of other people believe this way and that, and that helps your argument none.  Yes, there are things that can be argued in the Christian faith, but you CANNOT argue the central truth about Jesus and be a Christian.  There is but one way.

I’m certainly glad to see that you agree with the basic tenets of my post, but would you not also grant that one can believe all of these things, perform unmentionable atrocities such as torture and execution for blasphemy and apostasy , child torture and rape , or microwaving of children , and still call themselves “Christian”?  Their version of faith is on equal evidentiary (if not moral) ground as yours.  On what basis should we conclude that YOUR version of Christianity is right or wrong?  We accept that all Christians must accept the virgin birth and resurrection; some accept transubstantiation; are they right about that?  And if YOU (or anyone else) get to decide that, then why can’t I simply say “You know what?  You’re all wrong!”

This is all to say that the argument that what other people are doing isn’t the TRUE faith is very poor form indeed.

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Posted: 22 May 2007 12:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
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[quote author=“Jefe”][quote author=“nothingbutthebloodofjesus”]We can’t be a Christian and not believe in the virgin birth.

Krishna was born of a virgin.
Horus was born of the virgin Isis.
Buddha was born of a virgin.
Mithras was born of a virgin.

 

As I heard it, the case of Horus was a bit more grotesque, involving necrophilia.

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