5 of 29
5
A Word to Mr. Harris and those who hold similar views:
Posted: 23 July 2007 10:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  112
Joined  2007-07-16

Vic, man, c’mon, you’re ducking me again. I took your proof challenge, now take mine.

Jefe, what’s with all the c&v? You really think I’m going to look all that up?

Sambarge, I kind of hear what you’re saying, I’m a lesbian trapped in a man’s body. :wink:  But really, having known a lot of gay men, mostly through a social services job, it seems to me that there really isn’t much similarity between a gay man and a hetero woman. Gay men, on average (according to my observations), are much more promiscuous.

 Signature 

Music by me: http://www.myspace.com/gwoodbonobos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 July 2007 10:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2136
Joined  2006-02-20

[quote author=“VicM”]I’ve read all of your posts. And I must say that you all have made my point: Atheists are immoral people.


The fact that none of you have problems with homosexuality, even though you may not practice the same, reveals your immorality. You are all blind.


And, mamooth, what is your point in quoting Einstein? That he “discovered” the atom does not make him an expert on God. Besides, he’s was an avowed atheist so his comments come as no surprise. But I guess, if you need something to hold onto your sham belief, because it makes you feel validated, be my guest.

Vic, I’m sure that from your point of view the Law of Averages has nothing to do with God’s law; nevertheless you will find it operating blithely wherever you turn in real life.  According to the Law of Averages, many, many characters in the Bible, including some of your favorites, were homosexuals.  If you travelled around the U.S. visiting hundreds of churches, listing all your favorite, most likeable, intelligent, caring pastors, you would find that, (as already suggested by the Law of Averages) many of them were homosexuals - some open about it, but probably many, including married with children types, closet homosexuals who know they would be fired if their congregation learned the truth.  According to the Law of Averages, many Christian flocks would be without a shepherd if all the homosexual clergy-men and women were fired.

 Signature 

“The simple fables of the religious of the world have come to seem like tales told to children.”  - Nobel Prize recipient - Francis Crick

“It is time we recognized the boundless narcissism and self-deceit of the saved.” - Sam Harris

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 July 2007 10:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  172
Joined  2007-07-17

g.wood

It seems that you’re the only one willing to have an honest debate. Everybody else seems to be hung up on my estimation of atheists.
Also, what’s c&v?

To everyone else,

Let me repeat; I do not harbor hatred for anyone. I’m only using homosexuality as an example because all of you have defended it.


jefe,

What’s with all of the Scipture quotations? I don’t have a Bible handy so I can’t see what your point is.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 July 2007 11:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  112
Joined  2007-07-16

[quote author=“VicM”]g.wood

It seems that you’re the only one willing to have an honest debate.

I’m trying, Vic.

Also, what’s c&v?

Chapter and verse.

Awaiting your proof.

 Signature 

Music by me: http://www.myspace.com/gwoodbonobos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 July 2007 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  112
Joined  2007-07-16

[quote author=“Jefe”]‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

In an ideal world…which it isn’t, wasn’t, and will never be.

I just can’t get behind the idea of loving everyone when there are so many despicible individuals, ideologies…like that Janjaweed militia—love them? Forget about it. Line ‘em up.

What I do, which isn’t the same thing, is give everyone I meet a fair chance, regardless of who they are, where they come from, what they believe, etc. I’ve never met a Janjaweed, though. Sounds like something they smoke in Jamaica.

 Signature 

Music by me: http://www.myspace.com/gwoodbonobos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 July 2007 11:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  2927
Joined  2006-12-17

[quote author=“g.wood”][quote author=“Jefe”]‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’

In an ideal world…which it isn’t, wasn’t, and will never be.

I just can’t get behind the idea of loving everyone when there are so many despicible individuals, ideologies…like that Janjaweed militia—love them? Forget about it. Line ‘em up.

What I do, which isn’t the same thing, is give everyone I meet a fair chance, regardless of who they are, where they come from, what they believe, etc. I’ve never met a Janjaweed, though. Sounds like something they smoke in Jamaica.

The catch is what the word Love means in such an application.  As I understand it, love is not the usually mushy emotion of popular songs, or even the “unconditional positive regard” of Fritz Perls (I think that is attributed to him, but could be wrong).  Rather, it is simply recognizing that I and the other are both vehicles of the same underlying consciousness.  If somebody is a jerk, or manifests violence, hate, prejudice, and so on this is a disease of their individual ego (a communicable social disease, unfortunately) and I can feel compassion for them, even while doing whatever is appropriate under the circumstances.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 July 2007 12:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  112
Joined  2007-07-16

[quote author=“burt”]The catch is what the word Love means in such an application.

Looking over your c&v, I think what the Bible means by loving your neighbor is to show them the way to salvation through Jesus. It’s coupled with that I AM THE LORD stuff, isn’t it? But leaving that aside, it’s just a pipe dream. Maybe Gandhi did it, but that’s all.

If somebody is a jerk, or manifests violence, hate, prejudice, and so on this is a disease of their individual ego (a communicable social disease, unfortunately) and I can feel compassion for them, even while doing whatever is appropriate under the circumstances.

OK, here’s one of the most despicable things I’ve ever heard. This guy kidnaps a 14 year old girl, rapes, tortures, beats the hell out of her, then he cuts off both her arms and throws her in a ditch in the California desert (she lived and crawled to a town). After he gets out of prison(!!!), he kidnaps a boy…get the picture? No compassion from me. Up against the wall, motherfucker (sorry, Vic).

 Signature 

Music by me: http://www.myspace.com/gwoodbonobos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 July 2007 12:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1539
Joined  2006-12-04

[quote author=“VicM”]g.wood

It seems that you’re the only one willing to have an honest debate. Everybody else seems to be hung up on my estimation of atheists.
Also, what’s c&v?

To everyone else,

Let me repeat; I do not harbor hatred for anyone. I’m only using homosexuality as an example because all of you have defended it.

[quote author=“VicM’s introduction - 1st true post”]One thing I have learned about those who deny the existence of God is that they are usually people who are involved in gross immorality (ie pedophilia, homosexuality, adultery, bestiallity, etc.) and they don’t like the fact that there is One to whom they will answer to. That is the bottom line. You love your sin and you’re willing to do anything to pursue it - even if it means suspending all mental properties.

Sorry Vic, but you started in with the homosexuality as above. As I said before, when somebody enters a room, drops a stink bomb, and points their finger, they lose credibility very quickly. Perhaps g.wood has some particular bone to pick with you or just an infinite amount of patience, but your first post (and subsequent posts in a similar vain) paint you as a self-righteous soapbox preacher who sees no reason.

 Signature 

“The hands that help are better far than the lips that pray.”
          — Robert G. Ingersoll

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 July 2007 01:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  112
Joined  2007-07-16

[quote author=“HappyHeathen”]Perhaps g.wood has some particular bone to pick with you or just an infinite amount of patience…

Nah, just want to see him prove there is a god. After all, I proved there isn’t (if anybody noticed).

And Vic, first you said one had to be “involved” with homosexuality (which I took to mean actually participating in sex acts) to be immoral, and later you seem to say that simply not condemning it, or certainly approving of it, is enough to constitute immorality. Which is it?

 Signature 

Music by me: http://www.myspace.com/gwoodbonobos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 July 2007 04:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  277
Joined  2005-01-27

Great quote by VicM:

The fact that none of you have problems with homosexuality, even though you may not practice the same, reveals your immorality. You are all blind.

Oh.  I thought you said that what makes us immoral is the fact that we deny the existence of God, not our views on homosexuality.

Didn’t you say, “One thing I have learned about those who deny the existence of God is that they are usually people who are involved in gross immorality,” and “Atheists are immoral people?”

So if I held your view that homosexuality is immoral for other than religious reasons, I’d still be immoral?  Or would my hatred/pity/rejection/disapproval of gays get me one notch closer to morality? 

My question to you is who is the more immoral?  The otherwise moral (by certain Christian standards) law abiding atheist who believes that homosexuality is natural and therefore not a question of moral consequence, or the pedophile priest who believes in God with all his heart but rapes little boys in the rectory because he believes that God will forgive his sins on his deathbed?

Which is the trump card here?  Belief in God or belief in the equality and fair treatment of all (law abiding) people? 

You just might find that adherence to strict religious teachings often come in conflict with the rights and freedoms guaranteed to all people as written up in many of the constitutions of the world’s great democracies.  It’s just not possible to be both a great Christian and a great American (or Canadian, Frenchman, Swede, Norwegian, Brit …)

 Signature 

“Believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it.”  Andre Gide

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 July 2007 11:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3765
Joined  2007-03-11

[quote author=“Rasmussen”]You just might find that adherence to strict religious teachings often come in conflict with the rights and freedoms guaranteed to all people as written up in many of the constitutions of the world’s great democracies.  It’s just not possible to be both a great Christian and a great American (or Canadian, Frenchman, Swede, Norwegian, Brit …)

Whoa! Non-sequitur altert.  There is no inconsistency whatsoever in being a disciple of Jesus and in recognizing the constitutional rights of other people not to be disciples of Jesus. As long as a Christian does not attempt to enforce his standards on someone else by law or coercion, he can practice his First Amendment rights and let others practice their First Amendment rights. There is nothing in the Christian faith (you know, the one set out in the New Testament) that says “thou shalt legislate the thoughts, words and deeds of others.” You can be a great American and a great Christian (at least theoretically). We just don’t have too many examples of it.  But I could mention Martin Luther King, Jr. (let’s see you get around that one).  Also, it wouldn’t hurt to visit the Lincoln Memorial and read the words of Lincoln’s second inaugural address for a wonderful synthesis of Christianity and Americanism.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 23 July 2007 11:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  112
Joined  2007-07-16

[quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]You can be a great American and a great Christian (at least theoretically). We just don’t have too many examples of it.  But I could mention Martin Luther King, Jr. (let’s see you get around that one).

He had an extramarital affair. Wouldn’t that make him immoral from the Christian viewpoint?

 Signature 

Music by me: http://www.myspace.com/gwoodbonobos

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 July 2007 01:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  192
Joined  2007-05-28

[quote author=“g.wood”][quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]You can be a great American and a great Christian (at least theoretically). We just don’t have too many examples of it.  But I could mention Martin Luther King, Jr. (let’s see you get around that one).

He had an extramarital affair. Wouldn’t that make him immoral from the Christian viewpoint?

I think it’s humanly impossible to be a ‘great Christian.’  You’d have to deny your human nature in order to do it.  Hell, Jesus didn’t even pull it off completely, did he?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 July 2007 02:18 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3765
Joined  2007-03-11

[quote author=“sambarge”][quote author=“g.wood”][quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]You can be a great American and a great Christian (at least theoretically). We just don’t have too many examples of it.  But I could mention Martin Luther King, Jr. (let’s see you get around that one).

He had an extramarital affair. Wouldn’t that make him immoral from the Christian viewpoint?

I think it’s humanly impossible to be a ‘great Christian.’  You’d have to deny your human nature in order to do it.  Hell, Jesus didn’t even pull it off completely, did he?

I guess I have a completely different understanding of a “great Christian.” All Christians (Jesus excepted) sin.  “Great” does not mean “sinless”.  King was “great” - his prophetic message changed the course of American history, and it was based squarely on his understanding of the biblical revelation.  “Great” in this context (at least, to me) means that you accomplish outstanding things, in spite of your limitations and faults as a human (which we all have).  So MLK was a great Christian (he stood his ground for what was right, basing his position on his Christian faith, even to martyrdom) and he was a great American (he “freed a lot of people”).  I’m not sure what you mean that “Jesus didn’t even pull it off completely.”  I’m sure you will enlighten me. Remember, we are talking about great Christian AND great American, not great Christian and human or great Christian and great Jew.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 24 July 2007 02:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  277
Joined  2005-01-27

Bruce Burleson wrote:

You can be a great American and a great Christian (at least theoretically). We just don’t have too many examples of it. But I could mention Martin Luther King, Jr. (let’s see you get around that one).

I’d agree that Martin Luther King, Jr was obviously a Great man, but my point is that you could easily find Christians, both present day and in his day, who would argue against his greatness.  The fact that he was the descendant of slaves who followed the Buddhist and Hindu teachings of Ghandi (who BTW was quoted as saying, “If it weren’t for Christians, I’d be Christian.”) to lead his peaceful marches against certain written American laws, went against many of the Churches’ teachings.  If he were a good Christian boy by white Christian America’s standards, he would have stayed home and accepted his lot in life as a lesser person and kept his mouth shut. 

It was King’s superior humanity and courage to fight social injustice that made him Great, not his respect for Christian teachings.  White Christian America on the whole didn’t think he was such a great Christian until he blew them all away with his exceptional humanity.

 Signature 

“Believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it.”  Andre Gide

Profile
 
 
   
5 of 29
5
 
RSS 2.0     Atom Feed