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If life is a positive and death is a negative…........
Posted: 29 March 2008 08:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Meloncolin—
    I’m sorry that I can’t speak scientifically about rebirth and what energy becomes after death.  I have only a very rudimentary grasp of the sciences—and I’m talking just the basic ones—biology, geology, chemistry—high school stuff.  There are plenty of people on this forum who can offer informed scientific opinions of the various topics that come up for discussion. 
    As far as rebirth, and the transfer of energy after the death of a human being, I think in very simple, fundamental terms.  I think it always comes down to the brain not getting enough oxygen for one reason or another, the body shutting down, and then… voila… bury that body in the ground… add sunlight and water… wait a few months and presto-change-o!  You’ve got sunflowers.  Or daisies.  Or maybe an oak tree.  Transfer of energy, transformation of matter.  The molecules of one life form, and the bonds of energy that hold it together change from flesh and blood into earth.  That’s rebirth as I understand it. 
  Oh—I forget to mention one other most excellent idea from Michelle Cromer’s book:  it’s called the “Ecopod.”  It’s a coffin made from 100% recycled paper, compressed and hardened, and ready to be planted in the ground, just like a seed, with the body inside.  They don’t embalm the body, so it won’t make the ground all toxic.  They just wrap you in a cotton shroud, and put you in the pod.  It looks just like a seed case. 
    I’m sorry if you find this morbid or creepy.  To me, it’s not.  I really like the idea of going back to the earth.
And some day, when the Sun has completed its life cycle, the earth and I, and all other formerly living earth dwellers, will go back where we came from.  I just think it’s all so cool.  Sorry I can’t get any more scientific than that.

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Posted: 29 March 2008 09:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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Living = +1
Dying = -1
Death (the state of being dead) = 0

Can’t we keep it simple?

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Do-gooding is like treating hemophilia—the real cure is to let hemophiliacs bleed to death, before they breed more hemophiliacs. -Robert Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land

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Posted: 30 March 2008 02:00 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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no, because when you’re dying you’re still alive.

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Posted: 30 March 2008 02:05 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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Antisocialdarwinist - 30 March 2008 01:17 AM

Living = +1
Dying = -1
Death (the state of being dead) = 0

Can’t we keep it simple?

How is dying -1 and death 0?

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Posted: 30 March 2008 02:26 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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woofy - 30 March 2008 12:18 AM

Meloncolin—
    I’m sorry that I can’t speak scientifically about rebirth and what energy becomes after death.  I have only a very rudimentary grasp of the sciences—and I’m talking just the basic ones—biology, geology, chemistry—high school stuff.  There are plenty of people on this forum who can offer informed scientific opinions of the various topics that come up for discussion. 
    As far as rebirth, and the transfer of energy after the death of a human being, I think in very simple, fundamental terms.  I think it always comes down to the brain not getting enough oxygen for one reason or another, the body shutting down, and then… voila… bury that body in the ground… add sunlight and water… wait a few months and presto-change-o!  You’ve got sunflowers.  Or daisies.  Or maybe an oak tree.  Transfer of energy, transformation of matter.  The molecules of one life form, and the bonds of energy that hold it together change from flesh and blood into earth.  That’s rebirth as I understand it. 
  Oh—I forget to mention one other most excellent idea from Michelle Cromer’s book:  it’s called the “Ecopod.”  It’s a coffin made from 100% recycled paper, compressed and hardened, and ready to be planted in the ground, just like a seed, with the body inside.  They don’t embalm the body, so it won’t make the ground all toxic.  They just wrap you in a cotton shroud, and put you in the pod.  It looks just like a seed case. 
    I’m sorry if you find this morbid or creepy.  To me, it’s not.  I really like the idea of going back to the earth.
And some day, when the Sun has completed its life cycle, the earth and I, and all other formerly living earth dwellers, will go back where we came from.  I just think it’s all so cool.  Sorry I can’t get any more scientific than that.

thankyou for that post woofy smile

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Posted: 30 March 2008 08:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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meloncolin - 30 March 2008 06:00 AM

no, because when you’re dying you’re still alive.

Why should living and dying be mutually exclusive?

Under New Management - 30 March 2008 06:05 AM

How is dying -1 and death 0?

Why not?  They’re not the same thing, are they?  Dying is unpleasant, but death (the state of being dead) is neither pleasant or unpleasant.

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Do-gooding is like treating hemophilia—the real cure is to let hemophiliacs bleed to death, before they breed more hemophiliacs. -Robert Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land

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Posted: 30 March 2008 08:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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Antisocialdarwinist said:

“Why not?  They’re not the same thing, are they?  Dying is unpleasant, but death (the state of being dead) is neither pleasant or unpleasant.”

No of course not, but dying is something you do before death.  Your math does not make sense to me.

Anyway, dying is really a very strange word.  We are alive until we die.  We are all technically dying every day. You are either alive or you are not. 

Now that’s simple.

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Posted: 30 March 2008 10:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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woofy - 30 March 2008 12:18 AM

There are plenty of people on this forum who can offer informed scientific opinions of the various topics that come up for discussion.

I can’t begin to tell you, woofy, how much I would like to contribute to this discussion.

Probably the most concise statement I can make is: Que será, será.

You only have a certain amount of time to be alive. Don’t waste it thinking about death.

Unless, of course, that is your favorite thing to do in the whole wide world. Better than vanilla ice cream topped with fresh blackberries.

[ Edited: 30 March 2008 11:01 AM by Traces Elk]
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Posted: 30 March 2008 11:31 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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Under New Management - 30 March 2008 12:52 PM

Your math does not make sense to me.

Anyway, dying is really a very strange word.  We are alive until we die.  We are all technically dying every day. You are either alive or you are not.

+ 1 (alive) - 1 (dying) = 0 (dead)

Think of a person as a really fancy firework that shoots up, spends a while spraying out lots of sparkles and so on, then falls back to earth. The sparkles are the bits of us that are dying (like hair and toenails) and the main body is our core self, which finally runs out of sparkles to shoot out and falls back. Going up (in the + direction) is living, going down (in the - direction) is dying.

Does that make sense?

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Posted: 30 March 2008 12:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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Under New Management - 30 March 2008 12:52 PM

Antisocialdarwinist said:

“Why not?  They’re not the same thing, are they?  Dying is unpleasant, but death (the state of being dead) is neither pleasant or unpleasant.”

No of course not, but dying is something you do before death.  Your math does not make sense to me.

Anyway, dying is really a very strange word.  We are alive until we die.  We are all technically dying every day. You are either alive or you are not. 

Now that’s simple.

Death (the state of being dead) is a zero.  It has to be.  You’ll have a hard time convincing me there’s anything good or bad or better or worse or anything at all about death.  If life (the state of being alive) is the opposite of death (and I agree that it is), then life’s value must also be zero.  The opposite of zero is not one, but zero.  (The opposite of one is minus one.)

That life has zero value may seem counterintuitive, but to assign life or death any value other than zero is the stuff of faith.

AtheEisegete - 30 March 2008 03:31 PM

Think of a person as a really fancy firework that shoots up, spends a while spraying out lots of sparkles and so on, then falls back to earth. The sparkles are the bits of us that are dying (like hair and toenails) and the main body is our core self, which finally runs out of sparkles to shoot out and falls back. Going up (in the + direction) is living, going down (in the - direction) is dying.

I prefer to think of myself as one of those fireworks that makes a lot of noise but doesn’t have any sparkles.

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Do-gooding is like treating hemophilia—the real cure is to let hemophiliacs bleed to death, before they breed more hemophiliacs. -Robert Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land

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Posted: 30 March 2008 09:01 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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Salt Creek: 
    Don’t worry.  I don’t waste too much of my time thinking about death.  But I do find it an intriguing topic, and it just so happened that I was at the book store and the title “Exit Strategy” caught my eye, and when I saw that it was a book about planning funerals, I bought it on the spot.  Not because I’m planning my funeral, or obssessing about death.  Just because it was such a damn clever title.  I definitely prefer to focus my thoughts on living, and living well.  Carpe Diem.  Carpe Momento.  Death will come when it will.  Que sera sera is a perfectly good way to put it.

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Posted: 31 March 2008 03:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Antisocialdarwinist - 30 March 2008 12:13 PM
meloncolin - 30 March 2008 06:00 AM

no, because when you’re dying you’re still alive.

Why should living and dying be mutually exclusive?

You’re either dead or alive.

If you’re dying your still alive, just in poor health. You don’t even need to be in poor health what with life itself being a death sentence.

Why not?  They’re not the same thing, are they?  Dying is unpleasant,

But being alive can be unpleasant.Even more unpleasant than the act of dying for some people.

but death (the state of being dead) is neither pleasant or unpleasant

Thats operating on the assumption that death is pleasant/unpleasant. Something we don’t know for sure.

And if dying was -1 wouldn’t you have to pass through 0 first? Which means you’d have to die before you can start dying.

[ Edited: 31 March 2008 03:08 AM by meloncolin]
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Posted: 31 March 2008 07:13 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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meloncolin said:


” And if dying was -1 wouldn’t you have to pass through 0 first? Which means you’d have to die before you can start dying.”

Thank you for this.  I thought this was some complicated math equation Antisocialdarwinist was explaining that I was unfamiliar with.

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Posted: 31 March 2008 10:42 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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meloncolin - 31 March 2008 07:02 AM

And if dying was -1 wouldn’t you have to pass through 0 first? Which means you’d have to die before you can start dying.

Come on, lad, use your brain cells. Living and dying are processes, and +1 and -1 are increment and decrement, respectively. If your present state is the zero of not yet having been born, add 1 at birth to come alive, then subtract 1 at death to become dead, which is to say back to zero.

More fancily, follow a trajectory, possibly parabolic, initiated by an upward thrust engendered by the impulsive life force injected by G-d into your fetal cells and then subjected continuously thereafter to a gravitational death force.

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Posted: 31 March 2008 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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AtheEisegete - 31 March 2008 02:42 PM

Come on, lad, use your brain cells. Living and dying are processes, and +1 and -1 are increment and decrement, respectively. If your present state is the zero of not yet having been born, add 1 at birth to come alive, then subtract 1 at death to become dead, which is to say back to zero.

But 0 is a number.

So if 0= not existing, weather it’s from not being born yet or dying, then ‘not existing’ is still a value, as opposed to nothingness/vacuum.

[ Edited: 31 March 2008 11:51 AM by meloncolin]
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Third, it is Accepted as being Self-Evident.”

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