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No Free Speech In Netherlands
Posted: 24 January 2009 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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mpbrockman - 22 January 2009 05:34 AM

Sorry, I’ve spun off topic. This pending trial is disturbing. Perhaps given the large influx of Muslims and events like the murder of Theo Van Gogh and the threats on Ayaan Hirsi Ali’s life, the Dutch authorities are running scared. They may be justifying this action in their heads by telling themselves they are preventing a race/culture war.

Sander?

Not sure if I can be of much help here.
I’ve been gone for ten years now and I don’t keep up on Dutch affairs , mainly because I don’t care much for Holland. If I didn’t have family there I’d never visit the damned place. The land of my forefathers…they can keep it. But I digress.

WW2, and the Holocaust still casts its paralyzing shadow over Europe. Much more so than in the USA where we fight wars all the time. In Europe we refer to WW2 as The War and it has had a more profound effect on us since all this nastiness happened in our back yard and we’ve had to deal with the additional problem of numerous ‘collaborators’ and sympathizers to the Nazi cause.
We don’t like to talk about these unpleasant details but there were entire Waffen SS divisions comprised entirely of Scandinavian volunteers who very much liked the Nordic, blue-eyed mythology of the Nazis.

Because of this ugly past the Dutch are petrified to give extreme right an inch. I think this knee-jerk reaction is not serving them at all.

Another reason for this totally outrageous decision to press charges against Wilders is that the Dutch, with the strong sense of security that comes from having your head lodged firmly in your own rectum, have forgotten that some elements in human nature respond only to brute force.

In other words, they are a bunch of pussies who have lost the desire to fight for what they claim is most precious to them; their notorious tolerance.
By the way, although it is true that the Dutch have been rather tolerant of others over the years (not counting their colonies) it must be mentioned that much of Holland’s famed attitude (towards pot and hookers for example) also has a monetary reason behind it. Massive sex and weed tourism and tax Euros from both.

But in the end they have become soft and think they can discuss their way out of an encounter with a crocodile.

The added problem that the politicians face is an indigenous population, the vast majority of which (yours truly included) does not want the immigrants from Morocco in their midst.

Give any Dutch person about two beers and they will all tell you they do not like these people and the enormous crime-wave that has come to Holland along with the second generation of these immigrants. Whether the unpleasant behavior of these Moroccan kids has anything to do with Islam I can not say though.

For the spineless politicians, however, this does not seem to matter, but I can not believe that this would ever happen in my country of birth.
What is forgotten in all this hullabaloo is that this short film is nothing but the cataloguing of explicitly Islamic violence and the Koranic verses that are used to justify it.

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Posted: 24 January 2009 02:04 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 21 January 2009 02:44 PM

Geez, Sam Harris, Bill Mahler, George Carlin (RIP) - they would all be prosecuted in the Netherlands - they specifically want people to hate all religion. South Park has Jesus getting beaten up by Satan all the time.

I think prosecution for inspiring religious hatred has two main components to it - 1) the Nazi treatment of Jews in WWII; and 2) the Muslim propensity for violent temper tantrums when their religion is criticized.  But until Europe can actually tolerate completely free speech and interchange of ideas, it cannot be considered enlightened.

If nothing else, Sam Harris has created perhaps the most free-speech-friendly environment on the planet. The European Dawkins’ administrators threatened to kick me off several times. That’s what I’ve come to expect from Europeans. If they really understood freedom, they would have come to the US a long time ago.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali would agree with you, Bruce.  She talks about a phenomenon called “white guilt”.  I think this is one of the reasons free speech against anything non-white is not tolerated over there.  And yes, I agree that this forum is one of those places where free speech reigns.  I used to post on a British vegan forum.  I got kicked out -partly for my vituperations against religion.

I am not sure I would say that Europe is unenlightened.  It’s a matter of degree.  And it’s a matter of definition.  It sure is a hell of a lot more enlightened than when the church ruled it.

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Posted: 25 January 2009 01:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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Airy Spirit - 22 January 2009 08:54 PM

Islam IS Nazism.  They want to kill homosexuals, and force women into a subjugated existance.

Good thinking Airy Spirit. Indeed they do want to kill homosexuals, and they may as well kill thier women too, because thier lives are reduced to servatude, slavery,being bullied,subbordination , and confinment. Add to that being abused and a walking womb.


But Islam is not quite Nazism - it’s worse.  Tell it like it is ; I appreciate that . Sometimes talking “straight across the table “gets us a beating , at least we don’t look for a hundred ways to excuse or modify something that obviously stinks .

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Posted: 26 January 2009 01:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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Bruce Burleson - 21 January 2009 12:36 PM

This prosecution has a chilling effect on speech in the Netherlands.

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/01/21/anti-islam-dutch-lawmaker-to-face-charges/

Such a prosecution would not take place in the USA, where we actually believe in freedom of speech.

Bruce, thank you for bring this to our attention , and giving us a chance to make some differance ( hopefuly) . The ocean is vast, but came to be from zillons of drops of water. I wish I could have more chances like that.

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Posted: 26 January 2009 01:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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Dee - 26 January 2009 06:24 AM
Bruce Burleson - 21 January 2009 12:36 PM

This prosecution has a chilling effect on speech in the Netherlands.

http://cnnwire.blogs.cnn.com/2009/01/21/anti-islam-dutch-lawmaker-to-face-charges/

Such a prosecution would not take place in the USA, where we actually believe in freedom of speech.

Bruce, thank you for bring this to our attention , and giving us a chance to make some differance ( hopefuly) . The ocean is vast, but came to be from zillons of drops of water. I wish I could have more chances like that.


Make that “bringing”, not “bring”  Sorry !

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Posted: 24 August 2009 02:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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I am Dutch, member of the Dutch liberal party “Liberaal Democratische Partij” and I’ve always been a supporter of Mrs. Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I used to be a member of her own political party, VVD, and so was Mr. Wilders. I still support Mrs. Hirsi Ali because she is dealing with the negative aspects of Islam in an intellectual fashion. She writes books and explains her points of view in a way that anyone is free to agree or disagree with. Mr. Wilders however, is leading a single issue movement against Islam. He is constantly referring to the Christian roots of Western civilization. This is his perfectly good right, but let us not regard him as the sole defender of western values in the Netherlands because he’s not! He has offered no solutions whatsoever to the current credit crisis, rising unemployment, the coming worldwide shortages of energy and food, environmental problems etc.

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Posted: 25 August 2009 10:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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Tranquillinus - 24 August 2009 06:34 PM

I am Dutch, member of the Dutch liberal party “Liberaal Democratische Partij” and I’ve always been a supporter of Mrs. Ayaan Hirsi Ali. I used to be a member of her own political party, VVD, and so was Mr. Wilders. I still support Mrs. Hirsi Ali because she is dealing with the negative aspects of Islam in an intellectual fashion. She writes books and explains her points of view in a way that anyone is free to agree or disagree with. Mr. Wilders however, is leading a single issue movement against Islam. He is constantly referring to the Christian roots of Western civilization. This is his perfectly good right, but let us not regard him as the sole defender of western values in the Netherlands because he’s not! He has offered no solutions whatsoever to the current credit crisis, rising unemployment, the coming worldwide shortages of energy and food, environmental problems etc.

He strikes me as a cheap populist and a demagogue more than anything else.  That doesn’t mean his cause isn’t worthy, but he seems a pretty low character himself.

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Posted: 25 August 2009 02:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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There are no simple solutions for complicated problems but Mr. Wilders pretends there are. However, I think Western countries should be aware of the fact that some immigrants only come to our part of the world to exploit the benefits while at the same time holding our democratic morals and values in contempt. The recent release of the Lockerbie bomber is another example in which a gesture of mercy was turned into a revolting piece of barbarian propaganda by a rogue state.

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Posted: 27 August 2009 10:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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Tranquillinus - 25 August 2009 06:48 PM

There are no simple solutions for complicated problems….


Be that as it may,but there are simple reasons for complicated problems.

Islamic barbarism and backwardness should never have been imported into Holland.

In this, Wilders is absolutely right.
And I respect the man for having the balls to say so.

It is an absolute outrage that an elected politician has to live out the rest of his life under permanent armed guard because a bunch of verminous, bearded and smelly cretins can’t take a little criticism of their obviously bogus and inane fairytale beliefs.

[ Edited: 27 August 2009 10:09 AM by Lapin Diabolique]
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Posted: 27 August 2009 11:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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I would feel more ready to support Mr. Wilders if he would go so far as to striving for complete secularization of Dutch society and in doing so making it a country where everybody feels accepted. You cannot (and should not!) prohibit people from adhering to a religion, but what you could do is take care that none of these religions can ever dominate in the public field. It is not so long ago that people who weren’t Christians could not get a job in the Dutch army, the police, hospitals etc. And we are all aware of the fact that it would still be impossible for a non-believer to become President of the USA. Mr. Wilders is only combating Islam while at the same time exalting the Christian roots of Western Europe. He is at least an opportunist.

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Posted: 28 August 2009 04:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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Tranquillinus - 27 August 2009 03:15 PM

I would feel more ready to support Mr. Wilders if he would go so far as to striving for complete secularization of Dutch society and in doing so making it a country where everybody feels accepted.

I beg your pardon, Dutchmen, while I stick my nose in this discussion, but I get the impression assimilation into Dutch (and much of European) society is either very difficult or not an option, and this non-acceptance extends to all who are not Dutch, not just Muslims.  However, like the Jews of Europe, the Muslims have no European homeland and are caught in a no-man’s-land in their adopted country where resentment festers.

Americans expect immigrants to assimilate into American society, and if not the first generation parents, then the children.  Of course, this assimilation is not perfect nor complete, but at least its better than exclusion, and exclusion is what I suspect is Europe’s problem with Muslims and the mutual resentment.

Now, the dildos who practice their homeland brand of fire and brimstone on the people of their adopted country should be drawn and quartered by a torch and pitchfork-bearing lynch mob of Dutch townspeople.

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Posted: 29 August 2009 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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The Netherlands are currently governed by an ‘enlightened elite’ of Christian Democrats and Social Democrats. Both parties, especially the Social Democrats, have appointed representants of Muslim and other minorities in important positions in local, regional and national government. The following of Mr. Wilders (though not necessarily Mr. Wilders himself) hates the idea of having a Muslim for a mayor (e.g. in Rotterdam). There is also the fact that some of these appointments were virtually forced on Dutch communities out of a sense of political correctness. We should not forget that changing the mentality of (a) people is a long-drawn process. This is further complicated by the fact that some Dutch Muslims start behaving in a regressive way to counter the reaction of Dutch ‘Rednecks’ and refuse to assimilate etc. By the way, before ‘9/11’ there was no exclusion of Muslims in Europe, except by some people of the Extreme Right. There are two sides to this matter.

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Posted: 08 September 2009 02:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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G. Geurtsen - 29 August 2009 06:32 PM

By the way, before ‘9/11’ there was no exclusion of Muslims in Europe, except by some people of the Extreme Right. There are two sides to this matter.

Bullshit.

I lived in Holland until 1998 and at that time I could barely find anyone who was pleased with the appearance of Turks and especially Moroccans in their society.

Since you live in Rotterdam I am surprised, to put it mildly, that you can unleash such a blatant untruth on an unsuspecting audience.

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Posted: 10 September 2009 02:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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@Bad Rabbit
First let me give you some hard facts about Dutch politics in, let us say, the year you left: 1998. You can verify these facts on the internet.

*We still had our first Cabinet ever without any Christian politicians participating in it: Paars 1.
*Out of the 150 seats in Dutch Parliament only three were occupied by a political party that was against the influx of immigrants and refugees.

Conclusion: the anti-Muslim sentiment wasn’t strong at all, except in the lower class.

Second:
*by the time World War I broke out the Netherlands were still reeling from their own ‘Vietnam’, the (colonial) war in Atjeh, which lasted from 1873-1903.
*Dutch soldiers are currently serving (and dieing) in Afghanistan, like they did in Iraq, Korea and elsewhere.

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Posted: 10 September 2009 02:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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@Bad Rabbit and all the others that are being misled.
Mr. Geert Wilders was indicted by a female, leftist lawyer and not by the Dutch Government. We happen to believe in the ‘Rule of Law’, just like you over there in the USA. We are also a Democracy, just like you! Anyone can therefor press charges against another party.

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