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Posted: 22 March 2005 04:02 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 61 ]  
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Dennis Miller sold out too = p

The problem with your approach Landulf is a basic pyschological one.

Most Christians are caught up with the idea that they are victims already.

Frontal attacks such as throwing them to the lions, while fun to watch, have been tried before but weren’t very successful.

I suggest your motivation on your own personal level is just as ego centric and anger driven as their motivation.

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Posted: 22 March 2005 06:09 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 62 ]  
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While I will not argue with you, Iisbliss regarding the my motivations having alot to do with anger I only wish we were all more angry. I atleast like to believe that everything in existence can be either positive,negative or “grey”. I am no occultist BUT I have found SOME ideas in the “esoteric realms” to be,if nothing else common sense(i’ll probably get blasted for this but please understand the context here). Any magician worth his weight in tarot cards will make the claim that there is no such thing as white,black or grey magick. There is just “magick” and it’s “color” is determined solely by the operator intentions,moods,karma and all of that dubious stuff. Again I will say only that there APPEARS to be a certain logic here and it dovetails relatively well with “anger-based” motivations.  While I am hardly naive enough to think that my anger is going to change the negative actions of one person and the idea that everyone will rise up and get angry enough to change “hearts and minds” is a laughable pipe dream. Even if it was not a pipe dream all the anger in the world On IT’S OWN would probably change little. What then, are the alternatives must we just live apathetically with these cretins and allow the “true believers” of all stripes to destroy the world as they are clearly doing?I think the time has come for plain speaking. I cannot see anyway this is all going to change EXCEPT BY THE USE OF FORCE. That is the only thing the osamas,hitlers and farwells will understand and the only thing thing that defeats them. Please understand that such force must be applied only to those who would thwart our rights. I don’t think self-preservation is the only justified reason to use force. Before you label me,the american colonists could have survived physically under the yoke of the England. Many who fought against oppressive regimes could have survived physically,but they choose to use force against the bullies and often have truimphed. If I am wrong then,so are the american colonists,“pure aryan” germans who used force against nazis and many others. If you think the christians are a far cry from the aforementioned oppresors, your right. I think you may want to consider this is just for want of opportunity. If the past four years or so has not proven that their opportunities are on the increase in a frightening way then nothing will. Christians are just the tip of the iceberg and probably not,by themselves even close to the most destructive “true believers” They are in cahoots with those who are though (read thomas Frank’s “what’s the matter with Kansas for ample evidence for this “axis of evil’ between predatory capitalists and right-wing christians). If you think this is just a political bias on my part,sorry I “truly believe” your all wet only because the evidence to support this is quite sufficient. I have been to Columbia and seen, first hand the “ecocide” that america’s “war on drugs” farce is causing in that country. “WE” are destroying some of the richest bio-diversity on the planet and i’m sure you understand the horrifying ramifications there. Columbia is once again,the tip of the iceberg and I have witnessed far more than this,not to mention the countless eye-witness accounts I have read and otherwise found about. My friend, “darkness HAS come and there will be no dawn”. I think there is only one slight hope and we can get squeamish about it or ostrich-ignore it only to our and earth’s peril. On a lighter note,I know Dennis Miller is a sacred figure among many of our brainy folk in this culture,but I never liked him or his pseudo-intellectual brand of comedy so the right can have him. I would like to continue because I never feel I am understood clearly (according to numerology,this is a common trait among “number sevens”,which I am). I know the artillery barrage for that one could be thunderous but again,perspective and context. Anyway, time to get back to earning my daily bread and feeling guilty about all the ways I am contributing to the forces of darkness,more later.

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Posted: 22 March 2005 06:57 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 63 ]  
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[quote author=“landulf”]Anyway, time to get back to earning my daily bread and feeling guilty about all the ways I am contributing to the forces of darkness,more later.

Oh good. More…

Could you at least break up your tirades into paragraphs?

g

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Posted: 22 March 2005 09:47 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 64 ]  
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Gman, you are well within your rights to call my posts tirades. Your are not only well within your rights, but probably ARE right atleast in some substantial respects. I assume you do not wish to hear more and if I am that irrational IYO, then you need not read futher. I have no problem with admitting my own irrationality,is there such a thing as an absolutely rational human being? 

  You may want to ask yourself what the ramifications of some people’s flawed rationality may be as opposed to others. If my “weltanschauung” (actually this would be a misinterpretation on your part,since I do not claim to have such a thing)is troubling to you, I think then my meaning has eluded you.For this, I hold you blameless,call me stupid but I often find it difficult to articulate my ideas as clearly as I would prefer. I did state this in my last post and yes,I have serious doubts this has anything to do with numerology!


  All I can say is that many of us in the modern world have,what I consider to be, sound reason to be greatly troubled. If you do not feel my reasons are sound then you and I are going to disagree,atleast initially.Does this mean we cannot have open “dialogue” (I have a instinctive loathing of that word,but so be it) and perhaps not finally see the wisdom of the other’s ideas and the folly of our own? Ofcourse our ideas may ultimately prove incompatible (like mine and champs) and even the most like-minded individuals have bitter disagreements and wind up detesting each other. If you have figured out a way to avoid this, then I would welcome your insights. I am not a utopia-mongering pipe dreamer,I simply think there are many things in the world that could be greatly improved without paying too much of a price. Will this require bloodshed? I can’t see how it can possibly be avoided at this point.Is bloodshed neccesarily always “too much of a price”? Again few would argue it was for the american colonists etc….When pondering our current circumstances, I CANNOT answer that either way with any degree of confidence. Please don’t shoot the messanger,I can assure you violence of any kind is repellent to me. Yes,I know some of my “tirades” and things like my Tsunami comments may suggest otherwise. Well,so i have a morbid sense of humor,sue me :twisted:  for that, I feel i owe no apologies.

  Threats,to most humans are like beauty,wholly in the eye of the beholder. Before force is used one question must be asked;Is the threat I /we face serious enough to warrant the use of violence to counter the threat? As stated,I personally have mixed feelings in this regard. I DO however believe it is inevitable whether I or anyone else, likes it or not. Obviously,such a decision is not mine to make and for that,I am deeply grateful. I atleast LIKE to believe i am not like the wizard Saurman,in The Lord Of The Rings who covets the ring so he can order the world according to his will. Is that sort of desire within me and would I find the temptation to “wield the ring” overwhelming? I have strong reasons to believe that anyone who is claims to be certain that they could resist their “will to power” and dominion in situations where absolute power is at your fingertips simply does not know themselves very well at all. Most of us can therefore be thankful our power is limited. There are many people who have great power, ofcourse and we can find ourselves envying them. We would do well to consider whether we would want such responsibilty. Well at this juncture,I have little else to say(I am sure some of you atleast are really broken up about that). If anyone cares to have futher discussions,i’ll be around, off and on all night. I will say I do not wish to engage in flame wars. I realize I attacked Mr.champ rather harshly so I may be accused of hypocrisy(perhaps justly) but right or wrong, I just find the dogmatic christer thing to be no less repugnant than nazism (and I am a agnostic jew) and I sometimes do wish I could be more tolerant etc… of people like him but I fail at this everytime. I think I would be wholly tolerant if christians would simply CEASE their infernal meddling (on the other hand, the- eternal- hellfire- for- not- telling- daddy- your sorry- that -you- questioned -his -existence thing, is really where I throw down the gauntlet)and believe whatever they wish. I find hinduism as irrational as christianity, but you won’t hear a peep from me about the “evils” of hinduism because they are so few compared with dogmatic christianity of the evangelical kind.

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Posted: 22 March 2005 11:17 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 65 ]  
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OK. I get that you are mad about something.  But, honestly I have trouble figuring out what your point is.  Do you have any intentions of contributing something useful to this forum?  BTW: thanks for the paragraphs.

g

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Posted: 22 March 2005 01:03 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 66 ]  
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I wonder what alias Sam Harris is using in this forum, have you guessed yet? I wonder why He allows no replies to his postings, I wonder if He feels alone.

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Posted: 22 March 2005 01:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 67 ]  
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He’s probably The Champ!

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Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful…..Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Roman (3 BC - 65 AD)

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Posted: 22 March 2005 01:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 68 ]  
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X- and why might this be so?

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Posted: 22 March 2005 03:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 69 ]  
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Gman and CA ...

You guys are great for a laugh, right out loud, I might add.  Sarcasm, she’s a beautiful thing ... smile

Susan

PS to Landulf ...  I’m curious/concerned now too as to why you’re so angry.  What’s up?

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“Believe those who seek the truth, doubt those who find it.”  Andre Gide

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Posted: 22 March 2005 04:22 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 70 ]  
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Its way too obvious…........

No real person could possibly have his head as firmly planted where “the-sun-don’t-shine” as The Champ…....clearly a fictional character.

Sam is obviously just testing us to see how long we will tolerate a pompus bible thumping fundie ignoramus like The Champ.

Come on Champ (aka Sam) fess up!

[ Edited: 22 March 2005 05:04 PM by ]
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Religion is regarded by the common people as true, by the wise as false, and by the rulers as useful…..Lucius Annaeus Seneca, Roman (3 BC - 65 AD)

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Posted: 22 March 2005 05:02 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 71 ]  
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landulf: just a tad bit angry I see.  Is it ok to share one’s faith if that faith does wonders for society (feeding the poor, praying for the sick, clothing the poor, helping the poverty stricken, praying for your enemies, giving and asking nothing in return). Really landulf, this Christian thing is not so bad when you take a closer look at it.

Your stream of consciousness was very telling. But yes, Jesus does love you, just as much or more than myself. Then Jesus told them this parable: “Suppose one of you has a hundred sheep and loses one of them. Does he not leave the ninetynine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, ‘Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep.’Luke 15:3-6

I tell you that in the same way there will be more rejoicing in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninetynine righteous persons who do not need to repent.

Just a thought. Now don’t be so mad, it is bad for your physical health.

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Posted: 22 March 2005 05:48 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 72 ]  
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Landulf, I had to read it three times, but I finally understand most of what you said in your 3:42 AM “tirade”, as it has been referred to. Man, you are one passionate and very angry guy. I used to have a lot of anger over the same issues. I actually understand and agree with most of your reasoning. I have many of the same issues. Although, it’s been thirty years since I had anger any where near where you are. I arrived at where I am today with much of the same reasoning.

I read all of your reply’s today and if I do the math, you must have started typing about 1:00 AM this morning and continued to send replys all night and into this afternoon. You have to be speeding. No one could type as much as you did on just caffeine.

I am curious as to your age? My guess is that you are in your 20’s, unmarried and probably a tech geek and in college. Tell me how you got to where you are. Clearly you are very intelligent and articulate. I am interested how you arrived where you are today.

If you are going to be around for the “battle”, as you call it, you need to get off the speed. It will either kill you or F you up real bad. You won’t be any good to the cause if you’re dead or in jail.

Keep up the good work. I like your style. I think Tchamp likes you too. I know he’s going to pray for you. Phil in Murrieta.

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Posted: 23 March 2005 03:40 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 73 ]  
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I apologize for the delay in replies to everyone’s questions/comments.I just don’t have the time at the moment to provide the sort of answers/responses that I would like to.I would ask you all to kindly refrain from asking me any other questions or making any other comments that I feel I have an obligation (if only to myself)to respond to UNTIL I can address the ones already asked. If you insist on doing so,and never get a response from me,then please don’t accuse me of avoiding the question/comment.  I will try to address all of your questions/comments tommorow but i can’t promise anything.
              Sincerely,Landulf

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Posted: 23 March 2005 03:56 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 74 ]  
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I really felt compelled to respond briefly to your post. Please don’t take offense to this i am not implying anything, but your math is way,way off.I am actually a hunt and peck typist. I DO NOT do drugs of any kind and I am not even currently on any medication. I stopped ALL intake of caffeine months ago because it was giving me panic attacks and keeping me awake at night. I have never even tried “speed” (except if wish to call caffeine pills many years ago in high school a few times “speed”). The only mood-altering substance I have consumed in the last 12 years is the occasional drink. I just wanted to clear this up, you don’t have to believe this but if that’s the case, I really can’t help you there. Well,my girlfriend is about to behead me if I don’t get off the computer.I told her 5 minutes and one second over that limit and the axe is coming down!! Take care for now,ill try to be back on tommorow.

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Posted: 24 March 2005 01:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 75 ]  
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Since I have several hours before I need to get to work,I thought i’d reply to everyone’s comments/questions while I have a minute.The best way for me is in a linear fashion. The general consensus among most of you,if not all appears to be that I exhibit excessive anger,so I will deal with that first.

  Let it known from this point forward that I preface EVERYTHING I say with,“I could be wrong” I know NOTHING for certain,not even that I know nothing for certain! (if that makes any sense,but you get my meaning I hope). The hermetic “principle of polarity,is instructive here. All I have is extremely strong beliefs, extremely weak ones and others in between,there are no absolutes. With that firmly planted in mind, human emotions have their roots,my anger is no exception. Personal experience and/or most likely biology have led to my being more angry than the average bear. We could argue that their is free will involved. I have tried to be less angry and have failed everytime. I do believe if I really wanted to,I could become less angry,but I suppose I really don’t want to. Then we can conclude that I must get some satisfaction out of my anger and costs of retaining it outweigh the costs of dispelling/reducing it. I have reason to believe they do. I AM NOT angry 100% of the time nor even 50% of the time. I can easily switch it on/off at will, when I think it could be useful to myself and/or others, it’s in the on position and vice versa. I felt it could serve a purpose in this forum(I could be wrong). I think I made that purpose clear,if not I simply want to get people to consider that the happy-go -lucky approach may be permitting the destructive forces afoot in the modern world, a free reign.If you don’t give these “forces” SOMETHING,ANYTHING, to fear they will trample you and everything in their way, underfoot. I have already said I fully recognized the futility of this method,but in my estimation, the stakes have become to high not to try anyway.

    I will say no more at this juncture regarding my anger,but I feel I owe no apologies for it, a number of you may feel differently if so,you are welcome to disagree. I said I would answer and address everyone’s ?s and comments so Gman,your first. As for my point, I think I have now made it as clear as possible. I am quite prepared to sacrifice anything to change this world for the better,BUT that change better be worth it. What I would like to know is, whose joining me? I could sell all my posessions,give my money away, volunteer all my time and only a few would be slightly better off. I realize there are people who do just that (few and far between) and for want of a better term,let’s call them “saints”.(we might do well to consider their motivations and whether they still would do this if they got NOTHING psychological,God “brownie points”,or anything else. There is reason to atleast suspect, that ALL of our motivations(our meaning me too) are ultimately rooted in selfishness). I am not one, nor would I ever claim to be.  I don’t think i’m a devil either,like most people I think i’m somewhere inbetween. To illustrate,would I have gone to Iraq to fight?,not if I could help it. Would I have gone to Europe to fight the nazis?,in a heartbeat. You also asked me; “if I plan to contribute anything useful to this forum”? You are then implying that everything heretofore was useless. I can’t possibly answer that question because what you really mean is what you BELIEVE is useful. Until I know that, I can’t answer that particular question. With that said,i’ll move on to the next post,take care for now and no hard feelings I hope.

  Rasmussen, I THINK I just answered your question regarding my anger. You may feel my answers are incomplete,shallow,a cop-out etc…if so,feel free to disagree. As for your “concern” for whom? If you are concerned about me,I appreciate it but please,don’t be. If you are concerned about me doing something violent,I shot a mouse when I was about 11 and it deeply disturbed me for weeks. It still makes me sick to my stomach when I visualize today,so I try not to. But none of this proves anything so ofcourse,I can’t offer any further assurances. Take care, for now.

  Ok Champ your turn, First I feel I owe you an apology, I was quite harsh and you atleast don’t SEEM like a terrible person (who knows you could be a serial killer for the lord,murdering wiccans in Salem or something, just kidding but you really never know anyone when it comes to the abyss of the human mind,with it’s clamorous ministers of shawdows). IMO, you do have some glaring flaws however, well so do I. Perhaps we can simultaneously “remove the boards from each other eyes” WHILE working on removing the board from our own eyes,the boards might just come easier that way. Well, permit me to try to do a little board removal on you, and I grant you the same courtesy. First of all,i’ll whip out the ole’ “principle of polarity” idea again to illustrate my feelings about “the christian thing” Heat and cold ,although “opposites,” are really the same thing,the differences consisting merely of degrees.Look at your thermometer and tell me if you can discover where “heat” terminates and “cold” begins. The same goes for everything, atleast everything we know of. This includes christianity,I never said christianity was absolute evil,nothing is. I recognize the good things many of it’s followers are motivated to do, supposedly in JC’s name. Suppose you have a guy that feeds the poor,clothes the naked,etc….at the same time he rapes and murders young women. Would you say he should’nt be locked away for life (atleast) because of the all the otherwise good deeds he performs? This is basically how I feel about christianity. Here you have a belief system with many individuals,motivated by their belief(even if they merely are attempting to win “brownie points” with the big guy)who perform undoubtly wonderful deeds. At the same time, many of those same individuals fail to have any qualms when their god damns people (or even “permits” them to go) to the most horrid torture possible for all ETERNITY for simply questioning his existence? Like I said the other day, I don’t even think Hitler deserves ETERNAL TORMENT.  This sort of God makes hitler and stalin blush look like fuzzy baby bunnies!!! and you claim to love him with all your heart and soul?!?!I am really sorry but that just does’nt compute with me ,Champ. Not that I believe,that such a god or an eternal hell exists not in the least, but you do. Christians,again many of the same who perform good works are responsible for alot of rotten things right here on earth too. I think you know what they are so should I really spell them out? Again I would only have mild objections to christianity if christians would stop imposing their beliefs on others. It’s not even all christians I have a major problem with. Basically, it’s conservative catholics (the pope is one despite alot of nonsense spouted to the contrary) and many evangelicals and others.If these type of christians(i’ll call them farwellians) gained enough political power,“god only knows” what life would become for gays,women,secularists,“new agers” and just about everyone but the farwellians. They are already doing enough damage without america being an offical theocracy. Since you, I think you are too far gone in your faith I won’t suggest Thomas Frank’s book; “what’s the matter with Kansas.” Mr. Frank clearly illustrates how the predatory business elites shamelessly use working- class fundie christians to further their agendas. These people(the manipulated christians) are like the kid who lets an armed man into their locked school cause the guy promised them candy, to the detriment of everyone, including the kid. As for your comment that “anger is bad for your physical health”,I’m well aware of that. I have more to say regarding that but I think I should stop here. It seems some have expressed atleast subtle umbrage, regarding the length of my posts. This one has gone on long enough and I still have a few things to say to Ptripp. Take it easy,for now and like I said to Gman, no hard feelings i hope. BTW Ptripp if your reading this,I want to address your questions/comments in another post due to the biblical proportions of this one. So if you see this, I’ll be with you ASAP.

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