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Evolution takes a beating, live coast to coast!
Posted: 14 April 2008 08:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 901 ]  
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Beam_Me_Up - 03 April 2008 08:50 PM

TG never did answer Tom’s 40 questions. I think you are afraid, Champ, that if you answer those simple questions truthfully, then you will expose your religion for what it is.

I answered them twice, two years ago. How many times I got to do this?

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 25 May 2008 05:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 902 ]  
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Anonymous - 16 March 2005 10:08 AM

Champion,

I’ve been reading the strings you started on this forum and I’ve become quite curious.

WHY did you read Sam’s book???  ...Or did you ever get past the infamous “first seventeen pages”?  How did you learn about the book in the first place?  What motivated you to buy it?


Mark

I was in my local library, which is a place no longer frequentedy by the intellectually curious, sad but true. I enjoy perusing the books that I like, kind of like Blockbuster where you can test our your Wii or Playstation programs before spending 50 bucks on them. So when I find a book I like, it is like a jewel, or a bottle of fine wine, which I have to put on the shelf and look and, when guest come over I show them my collection, pointing out various vineyards, err, ugh, titles from excellect authors, or perhaps excellent books from unknown authors. Anyway, where were we?

Oh yes, so while walking in my eye spied a title on faith in the new book section and I stared in disbelief. The END….of Faith? No way, did I just read what I thought I read. So I strolled up to the rack and pulled it out, ran my eyes over the covers, persued the table of contents, and found it engaging. So I checked it out and took it home. Got in my favorite spot, put my feet up, and decided to find out what the context was. I was disappointed though, it does not hold up to scholarly peer review. I figured he must have had some new angle I did not know about, but he had no such thing.

I presume his next book, A Letter to a Christian (or something like that), is much more logically oriented and probably contains more depth. I have heard, or read, better reviews of that particular book.

From what I have gathered, Sam is finishing his PHD and will strive to find the precise “defect” that occurs when one finds themselves believing in the Christian religion. I suspect that the scientific community will eventually be able to wave some embarassing new data that would make one blush in publically giving support to, or believing in, the Christian religion. But I also believe, if nothing can be found, they will make up a defect and use it to supress or fight the spread of goodness, wholesomeness, and moral fortitude via the Christian religion.

Defect or not, I will try with all my might and not be like Peter on that night when he betrayed his Lord by claiming he knew him not. I do not want to have that experience. So when people publically complain about those doggone Christians and how terrible they are with all the too-many-to-count good works, I hope to be able to stand out in the crowd and say, I’m one of them.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 26 May 2008 05:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 903 ]  
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TheChampion - 25 May 2008 09:25 PM

the too-many-to-count good works…

Any good works are negated by the Falwell/Robertson/Dobson campaign of hatred against science, women, Jews, and non-Christians.

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Posted: 26 May 2008 07:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 904 ]  
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Carstonio - 26 May 2008 09:46 AM
TheChampion - 25 May 2008 09:25 PM

the too-many-to-count good works…

Any good works are negated by the Falwell/Robertson/Dobson campaign of hatred against science, women, Jews, and non-Christians.

Hatred? I believe these men do not hate anyone.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 26 May 2008 07:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 905 ]  
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TheChampion - 26 May 2008 11:41 AM

Hatred? I believe these men do not hate anyone.

They may or may not personally hate, but they advocate hatred. It seems unlikely that anyone could give a speech as dripping with hate as the “You made this happen” speech and not desire or at least expect societal ostracism of non-fundamentalists.

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Posted: 26 May 2008 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 906 ]  
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Carstonio - 26 May 2008 11:46 AM

as dripping with hate as the “You made this happen” speech

In fairness, Rev. Jeremiah Wright also claims that 9/11 was God’s vengeance on America, and while I condemn him for that as well, I must emphasize that his audience is much smaller than that of his fundamentalist counterparts.

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Posted: 26 May 2008 08:46 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 907 ]  
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Carstonio - 26 May 2008 11:46 AM
TheChampion - 26 May 2008 11:41 AM

Hatred? I believe these men do not hate anyone.

They may or may not personally hate, but they advocate hatred. It seems unlikely that anyone could give a speech as dripping with hate as the “You made this happen” speech and not desire or at least expect societal ostracism of non-fundamentalists.

Hate is a strong word. Give me some examples of hate, because I do not believe you are right here Carstonio. I think it might be your emotion running here and not factually correct reasoning.

You know as Christians we must make moral judgements. It goes with the territory. Some people get offended.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 26 May 2008 08:59 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 908 ]  
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TheChampion - 25 May 2008 09:25 PM

Defect or not, I will try with all my might and not be like Peter on that night when he betrayed his Lord by claiming he knew him not. I do not want to have that experience. So when people publically complain about those doggone Christians and how terrible they are with all the too-many-to-count good works, I hope to be able to stand out in the crowd and say, I’m one of them.

Wow! You must be a better person than Peter. May I touch your robe and be healed of my godlessness? Perhaps Jesus should have made you the rock that he would build his church on.  big surprise

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Real honesty is accepting the theories that best explain the actual data even if those explanations contradict our cherished beliefs.-Scotty

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Posted: 26 May 2008 09:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 909 ]  
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TheChampion - 26 May 2008 12:46 PM

You know as Christians we must make moral judgements. It goes with the territory. Some people get offended.

Here is a judgment from me. Some people may get offended.

Religion is crap.

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Real honesty is accepting the theories that best explain the actual data even if those explanations contradict our cherished beliefs.-Scotty

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Posted: 26 May 2008 12:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 910 ]  
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Beam_Me_Up - 26 May 2008 12:59 PM
TheChampion - 25 May 2008 09:25 PM

Defect or not, I will try with all my might and not be like Peter on that night when he betrayed his Lord by claiming he knew him not. I do not want to have that experience. So when people publically complain about those doggone Christians and how terrible they are with all the too-many-to-count good works, I hope to be able to stand out in the crowd and say, I’m one of them.

Wow! You must be a better person than Peter. May I touch your robe and be healed of my godlessness? Perhaps Jesus should have made you the rock that he would build his church on.  big surprise

Oh, you misread me. I would never ever claim to even be near the pro leagues that Peter resides in. I’m not the waterboy for this generation’s pros. You misread me. I don’t have a robe either. I don’t deserve one.

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 26 May 2008 04:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 911 ]  
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TheChampion - 12 August 2005 11:31 AM

I watched the History Channel last night. Have you caught that show, Apes to Man. I have to tell you, it made me laugh out loud a few times, honestly. What a crock! There were so many holes in the connecting of the dots. This whole evolution theory is ridiculous.

From the limited amount of your posts that I could stomach reading, it seems you have an amazing ability to spill forth information that NEVER cites sources or facts, but simply sweeping statements in support of your delusion.

The problem with your postings on this forum is that your lack of concrete, verifiable facts leaves your senseless rantings open for a complete dismissal by anyone who thinks logically.

I would venture to say that most people on this forum who are in opposition to your beliefs also apply logical thinking when reaching conclusions.

I’m sure you believe that by coming on this forum and arguing your points you feel you might possibly convert someone to your way of thinking.  However, each post you make with a lack of verifiable facts actually PREVENTS people from converting to your way of thinking, as you are seen as just another delusional lunatic who is completely unable to think with logic, examine all the facts, and come to reasonable conclusions based on facts.

While in theology class at my christian college, I started to doubt my religion.  This was due to the professor’s inability to logically answer some troubling questions.

The questions were:

What about indigenous tribes deep in the jungle that never hear the word of god?  How are they judged upon death?

Of course, the professor had no answer for this.  One could argue that christians should see this as all the more reason to become missionaries.  But it still does not account for all those tribal people who die before hearing the message.  Well, some may argue they get a free pass from god, since they didn’t know any better, as children do before they reach the “age of accountability.”  Well then, why should they get a free pass while the rest of us must follow the bible closely?  (and, how do we know WHAT the age of accountability for children is?).

What is your take on this?  The bible is quiet on the matter as far as I know.  And if, as you believe, the bible is the PERFECT word of god, then why is it quiet on the matter?  If it truly was perfect, it would explain conundrums of this sort that those who think reasonably are bound to come up with.

 

The other question is:

Why are there denominations of christian churches?  Well, most churchgoers say that they go to a certain denomination of church because they agree with the teachings there.  To me, this makes zero sense.  If you agree with a church’s teachings, then that implies the bible is up for interpretation.  If it is up for interpretation, how do we know 100% who is right or wrong in their interpretation?  Some early pentacostals interpreted faith to mean they could handle snakes…the ironic thing is the founder of this denomination died of snake bite (The End of Faith).

If there is no way to know 100% who is interpreting things correctly, then it is reasonable to say that it DOES NOT MATTER which interpretation you subscribe to, because you could be wrong.  What if YOU are wrong?  What if you completely misinterpreted the bible and you are living a life of total sin…then you are the one condemned to hell, aren’t you?  There is NO WAY to know, is there?

The same argument goes for types of religion (Islam, Christianity, Buddhism).  If there is no way to know, with 100% certainty, that you chose the right religion (there is no way), then you could just as likely be WRONG as right, and YOU are actually the one going to burn for eternity in a lake of fire.

Can you come up with a good explanation for this dilemma?  (And please, spare us from any tired discourse on Pascal’s Wager).


I anxiously await your response.  If you do not provide FACTS, and VERIFIABLE sources for said facts, I will write you off as completely delusional and devoid of any rational thinking, as I’m sure most on this forum already have.


Let me also note, i was brought up in a christian home, and was myself a christian for roughly 20 years before i finally could not ignore how things just DO NOT add up in support of christianity (or any other religion for that matter)

best regards.

[ Edited: 26 May 2008 05:11 PM by NoLongerDelusional]
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Posted: 26 May 2008 06:18 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 912 ]  
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TheChampion - 26 May 2008 12:46 PM

Hate is a strong word. Give me some examples of hate, because I do not believe you are right here Carstonio.

One example is the myth of the “homosexual agenda” to destroy families and convert kids, a notion peddled by all of the demagogues I named. And then there’s Pat Robertson’s infamous myth that feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

TheChampion - 26 May 2008 12:46 PM

You know as Christians we must make moral judgements. It goes with the territory. Some people get offended.

No, that is simply the misguided and unwarranted application of personal likes and dislikes to other people’s personal lives and claiming that the likes and dislikes are a god’s rules. Moral judgments are only warranted when someone causes harm to others. There is nothing immoral about homosexuality, and there is nothing immoral about husbands and wives being equal partners in their marriages.

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Posted: 26 May 2008 06:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 913 ]  
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Carstonio - 26 May 2008 10:18 PM
TheChampion - 26 May 2008 12:46 PM

Hate is a strong word. Give me some examples of hate, because I do not believe you are right here Carstonio.

One example is the myth of the “homosexual agenda” to destroy families and convert kids, a notion peddled by all of the demagogues I named. And then there’s Pat Robertson’s infamous myth that feminism encourages women to leave their husbands, kill their children, practice witchcraft, destroy capitalism and become lesbians.

Are you saying that there is no homosexual agenda to change the definition of marriage? I believe there is, my friend. You characterize it as Pat Robertson saying that it is to destroy families and such. I do not believe you have any comments on the record for that.

TheChampion - 26 May 2008 12:46 PM

You know as Christians we must make moral judgements. It goes with the territory. Some people get offended.

Carstonio - 26 May 2008 10:18 PM

No, that is simply the misguided and unwarranted application of personal likes and dislikes to other people’s personal lives and claiming that the likes and dislikes are a god’s rules. Moral judgments are only warranted when someone causes harm to others. There is nothing immoral about homosexuality, and there is nothing immoral about husbands and wives being equal partners in their marriages.

Don’t we all do this? Don’t we all try to get others to follow our truth? Our likes and dislikes? But with the Christian it is deeper than that. We have an instruction book that teaches us about the wages of sin and there is much that it says regarding sexual sins. So I think that the Christians just try to let others know about what we believe, which is biblically based. Regarding sex, the bible teaches that all sex outside of holy matriomoney is a sin, and sin separates you from God, hence, sound the alarm. Of course, it is a touchy subject. I have lived with a person of the opposite sex while not married, several times. Who am I to talk or counsel others about that. I got that all straightened out after I rededicated my life to the Lord. So I can’t really condemn others for sexual activities. I just try to tell them about the sin issue and how it separates them from God, and etc. What else can you do?

[ Edited: 26 May 2008 06:36 PM by TheChampion]
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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 26 May 2008 07:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 914 ]  
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TheChampion - 26 May 2008 10:33 PM

Are you saying that there is no homosexual agenda to change the definition of marriage? I believe there is, my friend.

Spinning the idea of gay marriage as “changing the definition of marriage” is an attempt to manipulate straight people through fear, implying that their marriages are no longer valid.

TheChampion - 26 May 2008 10:33 PM

So I think that the Christians just try to let others know about what we believe, which is biblically based.

That belief corrupt the entire principle of morality, which is about actions that help or harm other people. If someone’s actions do not harm himself or others, then others have no grounds for opposing those actions. The same goes for me - I generally don’t like alcohol consumption, but I have no place to condemn it unless the issue is drunkenness leaving to harm. “Telling others about the sin issue” amounts to Christians acting as proxies for their god. It doesn’t matter that they may judge themselves, what matters is that they’re judging others for things that are no one else’s concern. The only grounds for condemning behavior is whether the behavior hurts the individual or hurts other people.

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Posted: 26 May 2008 07:58 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 915 ]  
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TheChampion - 26 May 2008 10:33 PM

Are you saying that there is no homosexual agenda to change the definition of marriage? I believe there is, my friend. You characterize it as Pat Robertson saying that it is to destroy families and such. I do not believe you have any comments on the record for that.

No record of Pat Robertson saying that homosexual marriage destroys families?  You’ve got to be kidding.  Have you ever heard this lunatic talk?

Allow me to provide some quotes:

“The radical left is doing everything they can to destroy the moral fiber of America. They want to do away with the family. I am absolutely persuaded one of the reasons so many lesbians are at the forefront of the pro-choice movement is because being a mother is the unique characteristic of womanhood, and these lesbians will never be mothers naturally, so they don’t want anybody else to have that privilege either.”
—The 700 Club, May 18, 1993

“If the widespread practice of homosexuality will bring about the destruction of your nation, if it will bring about terrorist bombs, if it’ll bring about earthquakes, tornadoes and possibly a meteor, it isn’t necessarily something we ought to open our arms to.”
—The 700 Club, June 8, 1998

“Many of those people involved with Adolf Hitler were Satanists, many of them were homosexuals - the two things seem to go together.”
—The 700 Club, January 21, 1993

WOW!  He not only claims homosexuals destroy the moral fiber of our nation, but that they are in effect the same as Hitler.  Bold claims.  Actually, I think these quotations prove WORSE than simply claiming homosexuals destroy families.

You might want to get some verifiable facts before you comment champion, otherwise you make look foolish.

TheChampion - 26 May 2008 12:46 PM

Of course, it is a touchy subject. I have lived with a person of the opposite sex while not married, several times. Who am I to talk or counsel others about that. I got that all straightened out after I rededicated my life to the Lord. So I can’t really condemn others for sexual activities.

So what your saying is, we can live the way we want to live, and then just say “I’m sorry” to god, and everything will be okay?  Then what is the incentive to live according to the bible?  Why not just go wild and then repent…repeatedly?

Oh, because you wouldn’t feel good about yourself, would you?  Thats what it boils down to…feeling good about yourself.  So your true desire is not necessarily to do what is right, but to live in a way that you believe will result in the maximum gain for yourself.

It’s funny that the bible teaches us to not be selfish, yet, in order to come to christ, we must do so in a selfish act of doing what we must to avoid hell.  Contradictory indeed.

best regards

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