Sam Harris

[quote author=“CanZen”]
My feeling on this conundrum falls squarely on the authenticity of the experience.  It seems to me that there is always some latent fakery going on in religion that tends to disqualify it as real spirituality.  Even in art or in literature the aesthetic experience can contain spiritual significance at a personal level, but art and fictional prose are not at all like religion, they contain a level of false portrayal but that’s not hidden or somehow malicious, in fact they are upfront with their abstractions and yet are capable of eliciting a spiritual response.  Science also is what it is, there is no fakery involved and thus the awe produced is an authentic response to the world.
Bob

“The apparent is the bridge to the real.”  Sufi saying. 

Something that is completely fake may provide just the impact that triggers an authentic experience in somebody.

[quote author=“CanZen”]
Also, I’m not sure if spirituality is confined to emotion even though it seems to be that way. Perhaps “whatever moves us” is a more inclusive way of capturing the spiritual essence?  So that perhaps even those activities that keep us alive, (breathing, eating, digesting, perspiring, thinking, etc.) when reflected upon can become the essence of our spiritual nature?
Bob

I would say just the opposite, that emotionalism acts to prevent the development of real spirituality.

[quote author=“burt”][quote author=“CanZen”]If a well concealed pack of lies can get you to have a spiritual awakening - we have to ask, how authentic is that experience?
Bob

Whatever gets you through the night.

I think you forgot to include the ‘ironic’ emoticon on this one, burt. That’s the one that’s winking, if I may be so bold as to offer advice to our resident paterfamilias of book-learned wisdom. Unless, of course, you really believe this, in which case you have completely capitulated to the same thing that all the other faith-heads do, and have proven yourself much more of a cynic even than I am. Hope I’m not being too obtuse, here.  :D

[quote author=“burt”]“The apparent is the bridge to the real.”  Sufi saying. 

Something that is completely fake may provide just the impact that triggers an authentic experience in somebody.

This involves a rather restricted definition of the word “authentic”, and is a source of my admonitions that sometimes people should keep such things to themselves, because there is no way to share that with someone else. Other, that is, than simply yakking endlessly about it, unless the word “fake” is being used in an equally-unconventional way.

You know, if there was a Sufi saying that chocolate bonbons grow in limitless profusion on the trees around the gates of paradise, or some other spiritual equivalent, I would distrust the notion. Do you know why I would distrust the notion?

[quote author=“Salt Creek”][quote author=“burt”][quote author=“CanZen”]If a well concealed pack of lies can get you to have a spiritual awakening - we have to ask, how authentic is that experience?
Bob

Whatever gets you through the night.

I think you forgot to include the ‘ironic’ emoticon on this one, burt. That’s the one that’s winking, if I may be so bold as to offer advice to our resident paterfamilias of book-learned wisdom. Unless, of course, you really believe this, in which case you have completely capitulated to the same thing that all the other faith-heads do, and have proven yourself much more of a cynic even than I am. Hope I’m not being too obtuse, here.  :D

[quote author=“burt”]“The apparent is the bridge to the real.”  Sufi saying. 

Something that is completely fake may provide just the impact that triggers an authentic experience in somebody.

This involves a rather restricted definition of the word “authentic”, and is a source of my admonitions that sometimes people should keep such things to themselves, because there is no way to share that with someone else. Other, that is, than simply yakking endlessly about it, unless the word “fake” is being used in an equally-unconventional way.

You know, if there was a Sufi saying that chocolate bonbons grow in limitless profusion on the trees around the gates of paradise, or some other spiritual equivalent, I would distrust the notion. Do you know why I would distrust the notion?

I’m not being cynical, just pointing out that the state of the person who is triggered to have an experience is more important than the actual event that is the trigger.  On the other hand, if a person is following a particular religious path, for example Pentacostal, and has something brought on by heightened emotion, then the experience is almost certainly just one of emotional indulgence but maybe one time in 10,000 it might be real.  I agree that a false premise (so to speak) is likely to lead to a false result but that is not 100% certain. 

Agreed that it is best not to speak of such things, except under correct conditions, and certainly it is an error to go on about them and trying to convince others that one is now some sort of guru or such (unless one happens to be Dante Alighieri).  Even Jesus said that to pray one ought to go into a closet and close the door (just to tweak your anti-Christian button a bit)