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A Word to Mr. Harris and those who hold similar views:
Posted: 18 July 2007 02:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Jefe,

Question: Have you ever seriously studied the Bible?


Happyheathen,

You’re right. I’m sorry. I will refer to you by the name you’ve chosen.

Thank you for making my point: you chose to be an atheist because of the lifestyle you’ve chosen.

I don’t think you are in this forum to be convinced that God exists. You are in this forum to bolster your chosen belief that He doesn’t exist. The proof is in the guy you just quoted. Mr. Hitchens is in the same mold as Mr. Harris. Men who believe to be enlightened because of their “higher” education.

The Devil is astute. He doesn’t put all his eggs in one basket. He has his minions working in the minds of “religious” people like the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Islamic clerics, Hindus, etc. And he has his minions working in the minds of “secular” people like Mr. Harris, Mr. Hitchens, etc.

By the way, it falls on Mr’s. Hitchens and Harris to prove that God doesn’t exist. Not the other way around.

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Posted: 18 July 2007 02:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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[quote author=“VicM”]Jefe,

Question: Have you ever seriously studied the Bible?


Happyheathen,

You’re right. I’m sorry. I will refer to you by the name you’ve chosen.

Thank you for making my point: you chose to be an atheist because of the lifestyle you’ve chosen.

Just like BC, you seem to think you know not only god, but other people. I was born both an atheist and homosexual. You were born heterosexual (I think), but were quite possibly indoctrinated into religion quite early.  If you have proof to the contrary, present it. Otherwise, there’s nothing more to be said.

I don’t think you are in this forum to be convinced that God exists. You are in this forum to bolster your chosen belief that He doesn’t exist. The proof is in the guy you just quoted. Mr. Hitchens is in the same mold as Mr. Harris. Men who believe to be enlightened because of their “higher” education.

Where’s your higher education? It’s interesting how many believers, when cornered, love to insult the intellect, labeling intelligence as arrogance.

The Devil is astute. He doesn’t put all his eggs in one basket. He has his minions working in the minds of “religious” people like the Dalai Lama, the Pope, Islamic clerics, Hindus, etc. And he has his minions working in the minds of “secular” people like Mr. Harris, Mr. Hitchens, etc.

I’m sad for you. Truly

By the way, it falls on Mr’s. Hitchens and Harris to prove that God doesn’t exist. Not the other way around.

Yeaahhh….no.

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Posted: 18 July 2007 02:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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The Devil is astute. He doesn’t put all his eggs in one basket.

It look that he just did an put them all into you. A man usually find what he is looking for. It seem to me that you came to this forum to find evil. Well my dear friend in God you found it….. happy dreams

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Posted: 18 July 2007 02:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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You’re either lying or not very bright. Because if you had seriously studied the Bible, you wouln’t be confused about it’s composition, or the relation of one book to another.

Is the Bible the inerrant word of God? Absolutely!

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Posted: 18 July 2007 03:51 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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[quote author=“Jefe”]IF the bible is the inerrant wod of god, then how can some poritons of the text be discarded?

Hi, Jefe: Let me try to field this one. It’s not that certain portions of the OT are being discarded, it’s simply that they have fulfilled their purpose and are no long applicable.  My dad had certain rules for me when I was a child, and then other rules when I was a teenager.  When I became an adult, rules gave way to relationship.  It did not mean that the former rules were invalid - they just didn’t apply anymore because of the new relationship. Same with the Bible - the OT was like a tutor that guided God’s people until his Son came.  After Jesus came, we are no longer under the tutor, but we have a direct relationship with God through Jesus. (Galatians 3:23-25)  This is not a matter of “cherry-picking” (of which I am often accused) - it is a matter of understanding the flow of the biblical revelation, which is progressive and always leading toward a knowledge of Jesus.

I fully realize that you don’t accept the Bible and you think it is mythical. But don’t let one of the reasons that you reject it be that you think that Christians “cherry pick” when they give more weight to the NT than the OT.  You are on firmer ground when you just say “I don’t see any empirical evidence of the existence of God.”  I would respond that the Bible is a spiritual revelation and does not rely on empirical proof - but that is a matter of faith.  Atheists are at their weakest when they attempt to interpret the Bible, just as Christians are at their weakest when they attempt to do science.

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Posted: 18 July 2007 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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[quote author=“Jefe”][quote author=“Bruce Burleson”]
Hi, Jefe: Let me try to field this one. It’s not that certain portions of the OT are being discarded, it’s simply that they have fulfilled their purpose and are no long applicable.

Ok.  Lets talk about the word “abomination”.  Does it become more or less applicable after the babysitting ends?

I’ve probably had too much wine to understand exactly what you mean, but that has never stopped me before. “Abomination” is basically a “hated or despised thing.”  There are lots of abominations that we could list, and they all fall under the general rubric of “sin.” Jesus said that “every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men” (Matthew 12:31). The only exception is the blasphemy against the Holy Spirit, which is not applicable to this discussion.  These sins (abominations) are forgiven because of Jesus’ self-sacrifice on the cross.  We all have them (my abominations are no less serious than yours, I assure you), and Christ said they are forgiven.  Your sins are forgiven (I am not wearing a mitre or making the sign of the cross as I write this) because God wants to get that issue out of the way.  He wants a relationship based on faith (trust) in him. So there are still abominations - they just aren’t as big a problem because of what Jesus did.  Does that answer your question? (Of course not, who am I kidding!)

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Posted: 18 July 2007 05:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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[quote author=“Jefe”]So back to the original posters posit that athiests are without morality (based on his posted psalm), my rejoinder is to reflect that accusation back at christians that selectively value instructions in the bible.

I think atheists can be as “moral” as theists.  That is not a big issue for me.  I think that a lot of Christians don’t understand the relationship between the OT and the NT because they don’t study it, because they are lazy.

[quote author=“Jefe”] Back to the question of abomination (sin) is one sin worse than another abomination (sin).  Is the abomination of, say, wearing cloth-blended clothing or working on the sabbath more or less ‘abominable’ than say having a crab salad sandwich for lunch?  Further if all sins are forgiven by JC, aren’t these questions petty and childish?

The clothing and dietary restrictions of the OT simply don’t apply anymore, for the reasons I previously stated. My dad didn’t want me to have long hair or eat too much fast food when I was a teenager. At a certain point, that no longer mattered (the hair issue took care of itself by the time I was 30). I can launch into an explanation of why those restrictions were included in the OT to begin with, but I think that would get us off point.  Short answer - they don’t apply any more.  Eat all the crab sandwiches, wear all the blended clothing and do all the Sabbath chores you want. 

[quote author=“Jefe”] Lets abandon all the wierd behavioural, wardrobe, and dietary instructions that are maybe out of context or not relevant and focus on 1) kindness to each other and 2) treating others the way we’d like them to treat us.  (and by others I’d like to stress ALL others - regardless of their wardrobe, consentual life choices, or diets).

I John 3:23 - “And this is his commandment, that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another.”  Maybe you can’t do the first part, but I read your post as essentially agreeing with the second part.  So we are at least in agreement on that.  That’s a big deal in my book.

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Posted: 19 July 2007 12:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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[quote author=“VicM”]One thing I have learned about those who deny the existence of God is that they are usually people who are involved in gross immorality (ie pedophilia, homosexuality, adultery, bestiallity, etc.)

Or they have jobs or drive cars or something. Is that covered under etc.?

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Posted: 19 July 2007 06:28 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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g.wood

AND they have jobs and drive cars, trying to pass themselves off as moral individuals) etc.

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Posted: 19 July 2007 07:04 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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[quote author=“VicM”]g.wood

AND they have jobs and drive cars, trying to pass themselves off as moral individuals) etc.

Vic, you are hilarious! LOL You are the only one trying to pass himself off as moral - again and again, with disastrous results. It seems like you’re really looking for others’ validity for your morality. You can’t see through the haze of your fundamentalism that you’re a clown standing in the center of a circle of people you don’t know and don’t care to know, pointing your finger at all of them, shouting: “Immoral! Immoral all of you!  Homosexuals burn in hell! Atheists burn in hell!”

What’s sillier still is that you think there is a god smiling down at you, commending your actions as his servant bitch.

But ain’t nobody there. And you haven’t got a leg to stand on here. You’re both morally and intellectually bankrupt. I’d say you’re a cancer, but that would be giving you too much credit. You should really leave this forum before we’re all rolling on the ground laughing.

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Posted: 19 July 2007 07:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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happyheathen,

Sarcasm didn’t work, reasoning didn’t work, spinning didn’t work, last resort; put words in my mouth and reduce yourself to name-calling. Great job.

Hey Harris, these are the “intellectual” kind of people who listen to your drivel!

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Posted: 19 July 2007 07:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Bruce,

You are going about it the wrong way. These people here cannot be given deeper truth. I mean, I see what you’re trying to do but, these people must first start at the beginning. They must acknowledge that there is a God. Creation is where they must begin. The difference between these pagans and the rest, is that the rest at least believe in a god (though they are wrong on His identity). Atheists are, to put it mildly, at the bottom of the barrel.

Remember, do not cast your pearls before swine, nor give that which is holy to dogs, lest they trample those things and turn and rend you.

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Posted: 19 July 2007 07:30 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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[quote author=“VicM”]happyheathen,

Sarcasm didn’t work,

No sarcasm intended.

reasoning didn’t work,

Whose?

spinning didn’t work, last resort; put words in my mouth and reduce yourself to name-calling. Great job.

Not name-calling, but metphorically describing your presence here. Another way would be to say that you jumped into the room, farted stinkily, and then accused everyone else of farting.

Hey Harris, these are the “intellectual” kind of people who listen to your drivel!

Sam Harris is too busy touring and working on his Ph.D. to read our posts. But I have to return to this because it so fits: You’re not even wrong.

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Posted: 19 July 2007 08:08 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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[quote author=“VicM”]Bruce,

You are going about it the wrong way. These people here cannot be given deeper truth. I mean, I see what you’re trying to do but, these people must first start at the beginning. They must acknowledge that there is a God. Creation is where they must begin. The difference between these pagans and the rest, is that the rest at least believe in a god (though they are wrong on His identity). Atheists are, to put it mildly, at the bottom of the barrel.

Remember, do not cast your pearls before swine, nor give that which is holy to dogs, lest they trample those things and turn and rend you.

Well, Vic, I guess we all have different ways of going about things. Happy sailing.

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Posted: 19 July 2007 09:22 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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Jefe, Happyheathen, et al

Question for you: If there is no God, why do you worry about whether you are perceived to be moral or not?

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