1 of 3
1
Brave Afghan women
Posted: 02 October 2007 12:23 PM   [ Ignore ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  707
Joined  2005-05-16

Afghan models reveal the beauty under the burqa By Jon Hemming
Sun Sep 30, 9:02 PM ET

A model strutting the catwalk is hardly revolutionary in most countries, but Afghan television’s answer to “America’s Next Top Model” is breaking boundaries and revealing the beauty under the burqa.

Nearly six years after the overthrow of the strict Islamist Taliban government, almost all women in deeply conservative Afghanistan still only appear in public wafting past in the burqa’s pale blue, their dark eyes only occasionally visible behind the bars of its grille.

But in the relatively liberal northern Afghan city of Mazar-i-Sharif, a local television station has started to show a different image of Afghan women with an extremely low-budget take on the hit “America’s Next Top Model,” a reality TV show in which judges choose prospective models from a group of contestants over several weeks.

“I was really enthusiastic to make this program because I wanted the girls to present the clothes and themselves,” said Sosan Soltani, the 18-year-old director of the program.

“Afghanistan is free and these girls are the future of this country,” she said.

Four girls in brightly colored traditional costumes with baggy pants and long loose-fitting shawls and headscarves strode down the impromptu catwalk decked out in traditional Afghan rugs. Seemingly less confident than their Western counterparts, they avoided the gaze of the all-male film crew and press.

A quick change later, the same four appeared in camouflage combat trousers, sneakers and embroidered smocks. Then came denim jeans, open-toed sandals and colorful lightweight jackets.

None of this would be at all risque in the West, but in Afghanistan, such attire can spark outrage, especially when broadcast on television.

“According to Sharia law, Islam is absolutely against this,” said Afghan Muslim cleric Abdul Raouf. “Not only is it banned by Islamic Sharia law, but if we apply Sharia law and to take this issue to justice, these girls should be punished.”

“A STEP FORWARD”

More than 10 other models due to take part in the program failed to turn up after hearing that members of the international press would be present, fearing the wider broadcast of the show could lead to trouble for them, their friends said.

Those who did brave the possible backlash were determined.

“It is a great idea I think for Afghan girls, to encourage them to go a step forward,” said 19-year-old model Katayoun Timour.

“We know that in Afghan society 90 percent of people think it is not good, that it’s absolutely wrong,” she said of the program. “We had objections from people, but I tell them it is not something bad, they should see it in a positive way.”

But on the streets of Mazar-i-Sharif, it was hard to find anyone who objected to the program, especially among the young.

“It is a good program,” said 28-year-old shopkeeper Ahmad Sear. “People watch and like it, especially women are interested in this program—through this program and the clothes they wear, they might be able to develop their country.”

“Young people are interested in fashion and the program introduces new clothes to them,” said businessman Ahmad Nasir. “It also complies with Afghan culture, so it’s fine.”

But asked if he looked more at the clothes or the girls, he replied with a smile: “The girls of course.” Then added, “the clothes are important though.”

Model Timour said she wanted the outside world to see a different image of Afghan women.

“I have seen outside Afghanistan they have a different kind of idea about women in Afghanistan—they think they are always wearing the burqa and sitting at home but it is not like that,” she said. “Girls in Afghanistan are beautiful.”

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20071001/wl_nm/afghan_models_dc

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 October 2007 12:46 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 1 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  118
Joined  2007-03-13

Defying a moral code once it has already been overthrown and there are no more worldly consequences for it can hardly be considered “bravery”. In fact it is more akin to shameless cowardice.

Defying Allah, however, well that can be considered “brave” in a sense, but it’s probably better described as stupidity and evil.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 October 2007 01:45 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 2 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1088
Joined  2006-10-09
Talha777 - 02 October 2007 04:46 PM

Defying a moral code once it has already been overthrown and there are no more worldly consequences for it can hardly be considered “bravery”. In fact it is more akin to shameless cowardice.

No, since regardless of the state of the government, the women who compete on this show still have to live 24/7 in a country filled to overflowing with backward, narrow-minded, prudish bigots like you, there are still plenty of potentially bad consequences for them that they will need a great deal of moral, and perhaps even physical courage to face.

Talha777 - 02 October 2007 04:46 PM

Defying Allah, however, well that can be considered “brave” in a sense, but it’s probably better described as stupidity and evil.

I would call the systematic repression of half of the human race in the name of a mythical tribal god stupid and evil.

 Signature 

I am the very model of a Christian Evangelical
I’ve no need for courtesy when fighting things heretical
I know the bible word for word; you’ll find me pedagogical
I have my faith so I’ve no need for ideas that are logical
Atheists and Pagans fall before my wit satirical
They’ll burn in hell just as they should; their cries will be so lyrical
I’m always right, you’re always wrong, my reasoning’s dogmatical
For I’m the very model of a Christian Evangelical

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 October 2007 05:19 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 3 ]  
Jr. Member
Avatar
RankRank
Total Posts:  76
Joined  2007-09-24

kope - is it hard living in the 14th century? How many islamic women have to immolate themselves before you will see them as something other then cattle?

 Signature 

“I tell you, we are here on Earth to fart around, and don’t let anybody tell you different.”  - Kurt Vonnegut

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 October 2007 05:28 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 4 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1088
Joined  2006-10-09
kope - 02 October 2007 08:48 PM

Bikini vs. Burka
http://www.savethemales.ca/180902.html

Some choice quotes from the article:

For me, the burka represents a woman’s consecration to her husband and family. Only they see her.

And why would that ever be a good thing?  Why should a woman be essentially imprisoned inside her own home, forbidden ever to show her face outside it?

In contrast, the bikinied American beauty queen struts practically naked in front of millions on TV. A feminist, she belongs to herself. In practice, paradoxically, she is public property. She belongs to no one and everyone. She shops her body to the highest bidder. She is auctioning herself all of the time.

In America, the cultural measure of a woman’s value is her sex appeal. (As this asset depreciates quickly, she is neurotically obsessed with appearance and plagued by weight problems.)

As an adolescent, her role model is Britney Spears, a singer whose act approximates a strip tease. From Britney, she learns that she will be loved only if she gives sex. Thus, she learns to “hook up” rather than to demand patient courtship and true love. As a result, dozens of males know her before her husband does. She loses her innocence, which is a part of her charm. She becomes hardened and calculating. Unable to love, she is unfit to receive her husband’s seed.

Oh please!  This is a ridiculous straw man argument.  Not all girls have Britney Spears as a role model, in fact lately I suspect very few do, so damaged has her reputation become.  I don’t know very many women who feel they are only valued if they give out sex, and generally that’s regarded as a sign of low self-esteem in a woman.  Healthy, well-adjusted women are not like this, no matter what this guy thinks.

This, of course, is the goal of the social engineers at the NWO…

Okay, when someone start raving about the evil “New World Order” conspiracy, you can bet the rent money you’re dealing with a paranoid wacko.  Congratulations kope, you find support for your views among nutjobs.

Allow me to quote from a far more rational person:

Degradation of Women

Thar-dominated societies aren’t merely male-dominated, but subject women to extreme degrees of degradation. Part and parcel of the thar mentality is extreme paranoia (take that term in the literal, clinical sense of mental illness) regarding female sexuality and possible infidelity.

*The Taliban in Afghanistan made it virtually impossible for women to get medical care because that would require them to be seen by men who were not their husbands.

*Women who were raped by the Pakistani army in Bangladesh during that country’s war for independence were often abandoned by their husbands, despite an intense government campaign on their behalf. At that, they weren’t badly off. In many other thar-dominated societies, it is common for rape victims to be killed by their own families.

*The practice of female genital mutilation so widely practiced in Africa and the Middle East is specifically designed to deprive women of sensation because it is felt that women who can experience sexual sensations are more likely to be unfaithful.

French filmmaker Pierre Rehov, interviewed about his film Suicide Killers on MSNBC’s “Connected” (July 15, 2006), had this to say:

I came to the conclusion that we are facing a neurosis at the level of an entire civilization. Most neuroses have in common a dramatic event, generally linked to an unacceptable sexual behavior. In this case, we are talking of kids living all their lives in pure frustration, with no opportunity to experience sex, love, tenderness or even understanding from the opposite sex. The separation between men and women in Islam is absolute. So is contempt toward women, who are totally dominated by men. This leads to a situation of pure anxiety, in which normal behavior is not possible. It is no coincidence that suicide killers are mostly young men dominated subconsciously by an overwhelming libido that they not only cannot satisfy but are afraid of, as if it is the work of the devil. Since Islam describes heaven as a place where everything on Earth will finally be allowed, and promises 72 virgins to those frustrated kids, killing others and killing themselves to reach this redemption becomes their only solution.

The World’s Most Toxic Value System

The article I linked to does not call Islam “The World’s Most Toxic Value System”, but rather the “honor killing” or “personal vendetta” mentality.  Islam merely looms large in such a value system because so many in the Islamic world typify this sort of behavior.

[ Edited: 02 October 2007 05:33 PM by Billy Shears]
 Signature 

I am the very model of a Christian Evangelical
I’ve no need for courtesy when fighting things heretical
I know the bible word for word; you’ll find me pedagogical
I have my faith so I’ve no need for ideas that are logical
Atheists and Pagans fall before my wit satirical
They’ll burn in hell just as they should; their cries will be so lyrical
I’m always right, you’re always wrong, my reasoning’s dogmatical
For I’m the very model of a Christian Evangelical

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 October 2007 07:55 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 5 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  651
Joined  2006-12-08
kope - 02 October 2007 08:48 PM

Bikini vs. Burka
http://www.savethemales.ca/180902.html

Makow should write a romance novel.

 Signature 

Do-gooding is like treating hemophilia—the real cure is to let hemophiliacs bleed to death, before they breed more hemophiliacs. -Robert Heinlein, Stranger in a Strange Land

Profile
 
 
Posted: 02 October 2007 08:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 6 ]  
Newbie
Rank
Total Posts:  27
Joined  2006-11-24

Defying a moral code once it has already been overthrown and there are no more worldly consequences for it can hardly be considered “bravery”. In fact it is more akin to shameless cowardice.

Defying Allah, however, well that can be considered “brave” in a sense, but it’s probably better described as stupidity and evil.

Stupidity?  What is stupid about defying something that is non-existent?  Is it less stupid to believe, without evidence, in prophets ascending to heaven on white horses? In virgins as a reward for martyrdom? In killing those who simply change their minds about Islam?  In causing riots over cartoons?  In killing or ostracizing the blameless victims of rape?

Are these the moral codes we should live our lives by?

You can force women to wear burkas, but this will never diminish their sexuality or make it less obvious.  It’s foolish.  What’s hidden actually becomes more alluring.  Women are sexual.  As are men.  (Why don’t Muslim men wear burkas to obscure their sexuality?  Why the double-standard?)  Sexuality is a part of being human, of being a man and being a woman.  It’s not all that makes us human, but it is a natural part of what does.  To deny this and to suppress it is ridiculous.  The double-standards of Islam are patently foolish.  The repression, mutilation, and subjugation of Muslim women are criminal.  By repressing the lives of women, Islam has cut off it’s right hand.

Yes, there are those in the West (and everywhere) who are defined by just their sexuality.  But this is their choice.  Their free choice.  Mostly, they are simply spectacles and are not taken seriously by people of even modest intelligence.

I hope that more women follow the lead of Alyah Hirsi Ali and escape Islam (and all repressive religions and cultures).  I hope they come to the US to live.  We need such brave, intelligent women.  They will always be welcome here.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 October 2007 05:50 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 7 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  707
Joined  2005-05-16
curve_ball - 03 October 2007 12:21 AM

I hope that more women follow the lead of Alyah Hirsi Ali and escape Islam (and all repressive religions and cultures).  I hope they come to the US to live.  We need such brave, intelligent women.  They will always be welcome here.

We should allow those beautiful Afghan women to move the west.
I’m sure there a many western men who treat them like goddesses and not cattle.

[ Edited: 03 October 2007 05:52 AM by MrMody]
Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 October 2007 06:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 8 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3255
Joined  2004-12-24
Talha777 - 02 October 2007 04:46 PM

Defying a moral code once it has already been overthrown and there are no more worldly consequences for it can hardly be considered “bravery”. In fact it is more akin to shameless cowardice.

Defying Allah, however, well that can be considered “brave” in a sense, but it’s probably better described as stupidity and evil.


You seem thoroughly unburdened by reality.

Byron

 Signature 

“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 October 2007 06:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 9 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  653
Joined  2007-08-24

Talha777 hasn’t watched the Disney channel much, or even flipped through it while channel surfing. The people at Disney seem to be falling over themselves to provide children with positive female role models, young women of intelligence, ambition, and yes, even a bit of sexuality, as is appropriate to such ages. There are PLENTY of other female role models besides Brittney Spears in Western culture. You really have to be looking for causes to criticize Western culture if you want to claim Brittney is our greatest role model.

 Signature 

“The three great rights are so bound together as to be essentially one right. To give a man his life, but deny him his liberty, is to take from him all that makes his life worth living. To give him his liberty, but take from him the property which is the fruit and badge of his liberty, is to still leave him a slave.”

- George Sutherland, Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court, 1921.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 October 2007 09:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 10 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  118
Joined  2007-03-13

Talha777 hasn’t watched the Disney channel much, or even flipped through it while channel surfing.

That’s because I don’t watch tv. In fact I have very few muslim friends because i do not even like to talk about worldly affairs.

(Why don’t Muslim men wear burkas to obscure their sexuality?  Why the double-standard?)

Muslim men must also obscure their “sexuality” meaning both genders should dress modestly. But its pretty insane to say that men and women must have identical standard with regard to modesty. There’s a reason women can’t join the NHL and NBA but must have their own leagues. That reason is similar to why men dont wear the veil but dress modestly in a different manner. For example, men must grow their beard to at least fist length, they must not wear shorts and expose any of their private parts.

Yes, there are those in the West (and everywhere) who are defined by just their sexuality.  But this is their choice.  Their free choice.  Mostly, they are simply spectacles and are not taken seriously by people of even modest intelligence.

So youre saying most of America does not even possess modest intelligence? Well I agree with you there. Those celebrity/gossip magazines survive and are available on a large scale in virtually every shop and guess what…mostly women buy them.

I hope that more women follow the lead of Alyah Hirsi Ali and escape Islam (and all repressive religions and cultures).

You really think Ayan Hirsi Ali is genuine? Oh God, if only you knew what a crook and shameless opportunist she really is.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 October 2007 10:03 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 11 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  653
Joined  2007-08-24
Talha777 - 03 October 2007 01:03 PM

You really think Ayan Hirsi Ali is genuine? Oh God, if only you knew what a crook and shameless opportunist she really is.

Crook, certainly, by the standards of Sharia law. And for that, I admire her. Opportunist? When she had the opportunity to escape an arranged marriage and all the other opression of Islam, she took it. Good for her. Is she making a living through her promotion of woman’s rights? Fine with me. Its a good cause, and she is doing good work. Why shouldn’t she be rewarded?

You have utterly failed to defend your religion against criticisms of barbarism.

I have heard that Moslims believe that a woman has only half a soul. Tragically, this is partly correct, at least for the women forced to live under such opression. A person’s soul is made up of memories, things they have learned in their lives, their character and personality, and most importantly of their hopes and dreams, the things they value, which they want to pursue with their own efforts. When you are told that having your own hopes and dreams is itself evil, when you are punished for even having them, when you are treated not as a person, but as some shamefull thing that needs to be hidden from the world, part of your soul dies. Hopes and dreams are part of who we are. I can just imagine how many such hopes are destroyed by arranged marriages. Even if a girl grows up WANTING to devote herself to a family, have and care for children, and please a husband, what agony it must give her to be forced into a marriage with some man who doesn’t care for her, who mistreats her, what does that do to her? If she it told that her duty is to serve such a husband, no matter how much she suffers for it, that her purpose in life is not to achive her own happiness, but to sacrifice any chance for happiness for the sake of duty, what happens to her?

I applaud any woman who manges to escape such a hell.

 Signature 

“The three great rights are so bound together as to be essentially one right. To give a man his life, but deny him his liberty, is to take from him all that makes his life worth living. To give him his liberty, but take from him the property which is the fruit and badge of his liberty, is to still leave him a slave.”

- George Sutherland, Associate Justice of the United States Supreme Court, 1921.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 October 2007 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 12 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  118
Joined  2007-03-13

You criticize Muslims for arranged marriage yet we are not the only ones who do it. Hindus are also well known for arranged marriage. In fact, arranged marriage has been the norm of humanity for centuries in almost every culture. Now youre telling me it barbaric and oppressive, was humanity barbaric and oppressive for so many generations?

Than you say it is oppressive to “hide” women from the world. So this means you think men are the world? Women have their own world among women and men have their own world among men. The only time these worlds meet is between husband and wife and other close relations (mother-son, brother-sister, etc.)

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 October 2007 11:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 13 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1088
Joined  2006-10-09
Talha777 - 03 October 2007 01:03 PM

Muslim men must also obscure their “sexuality” meaning both genders should dress modestly. But its pretty insane to say that men and women must have identical standard with regard to modesty. There’s a reason women can’t join the NHL and NBA but must have their own leagues. That reason is similar to why men dont wear the veil but dress modestly in a different manner. For example, men must grow their beard to at least fist length, they must not wear shorts and expose any of their private parts.

Women compete in different sports leagues because of differences in physical strength and endurance, which is an entirely separate and unrelated issue to sexual relations between genders and the moral issues surrounding it.  This is a complete non sequitur.  If your thoughts are this disorganized, no wonder to subscribe to backward and irrational beliefs.

 Signature 

I am the very model of a Christian Evangelical
I’ve no need for courtesy when fighting things heretical
I know the bible word for word; you’ll find me pedagogical
I have my faith so I’ve no need for ideas that are logical
Atheists and Pagans fall before my wit satirical
They’ll burn in hell just as they should; their cries will be so lyrical
I’m always right, you’re always wrong, my reasoning’s dogmatical
For I’m the very model of a Christian Evangelical

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 October 2007 11:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 14 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1088
Joined  2006-10-09
Talha777 - 03 October 2007 03:38 PM

You criticize Muslims for arranged marriage yet we are not the only ones who do it. Hindus are also well known for arranged marriage. In fact, arranged marriage has been the norm of humanity for centuries in almost every culture. Now youre telling me it barbaric and oppressive, was humanity barbaric and oppressive for so many generations?

Yes.  Congratulations.  You do show some understanding after all.

Let’s try an experiment in word/phrase replacement.

Talha777 - 03 October 2007 03:38 PM

You criticize Muslims for slavery yet we are not the only ones who do it. Hindus are also well known for slavery. In fact, slavery has been the norm of humanity for centuries in almost every culture. Now youre telling me it barbaric and oppressive, was humanity barbaric and oppressive for so many generations?

Just because something is an ancient practice does not for an instant make it a good one.

Talha777 - 03 October 2007 03:38 PM

Than you say it is oppressive to “hide” women from the world. So this means you think men are the world? Women have their own world among women and men have their own world among men. The only time these worlds meet is between husband and wife and other close relations (mother-son, brother-sister, etc.)

Horsecrap.  This is a complete BS justification of shutting women up inside a social prison, and rationalizing it by telling yourself that they create their own social network for themselves, and they’re really just as happy there as you are in your circles.  You should be ashamed of yourself.

There is no excuse for denying women the opportunity to live in the wider world around them.  It is also stupid and counterproductive to deprive your society of the useful talents of half the population.

 Signature 

I am the very model of a Christian Evangelical
I’ve no need for courtesy when fighting things heretical
I know the bible word for word; you’ll find me pedagogical
I have my faith so I’ve no need for ideas that are logical
Atheists and Pagans fall before my wit satirical
They’ll burn in hell just as they should; their cries will be so lyrical
I’m always right, you’re always wrong, my reasoning’s dogmatical
For I’m the very model of a Christian Evangelical

Profile
 
 
Posted: 03 October 2007 12:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 15 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  118
Joined  2007-03-13

Women compete in different sports leagues because of differences in physical strength and endurance, which is an entirely separate and unrelated issue to sexual relations between genders and the moral issues surrounding it.  This is a complete non sequitur.  If your thoughts are this disorganized, no wonder to subscribe to backward and irrational beliefs.

My point is that women are inherently different from man, so you cannot always give them an identical standard. You yourself have said women are physically weaker than men, thus how can they compete with men in the same sports league? Likewise, women’s body is more sexual in nature compared to men’s body, therefore they have to cover their entire body with veil in public, whereas man must also dress modestly. Why in the West, for example, is it considered indecent for women to not wear a shirt but it is not considered indecent for men to do likewise. So how am I being “irrational”? I am just giving you the reality.

Horsecrap.  This is a complete BS justification of shutting women up inside a social prison, and rationalizing it by telling yourself that they create their own social network for themselves, and they’re really just as happy there as you are in your circles.  You should be ashamed of yourself.
There is no excuse for denying women the opportunity to live in the wider world around them.  It is also stupid and counterproductive to deprive your society of the useful talents of half the population.

It seems when you cannot answer a logical argument you resort to emotions and foul language. That is unfortunate and regrettable.

Profile
 
 
   
1 of 3
1
 
RSS 2.0     Atom Feed