2 of 6
2
All in fvour of the death penalty say aye!
Posted: 28 January 2008 09:32 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  132
Joined  2007-07-31
Carstonio - 28 January 2008 01:17 PM
Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 27 January 2008 11:49 PM

It always morbidly amuses me that most if not all of those who are against capital punishment are for torturing someone for the rest of his or her existence by locking him or her in a cage and, at the very least, depriving him or her healthy sensory input, as if that’s so much more humane than a quick death.

Can you explain why sensory input is “healthy”?

That’s not what I said. Sensory input is not necessarily healthy, obviously. But a healthy person needs positive sensory input, and a serial killer doesn’t deserve any such thing.

I don’t understand why isolation from the human race would unquestionably be torture, since some people like that isolation.

Hence the alternative (below).

Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 27 January 2008 11:49 PM

The alternative is rewarding the violently sociopathic criminal’s actions by providing him or her a comfortable existence which is utterly undeserved.

You’re right about that comfortable existence. I would not want to subject someone to physical and sensory isolation if it could be proven that this amounts to torture - with this proof, I would find it just as abhorrent as anyone else.

Inmates don’t hang themselves because they’re enjoying life.

What I really want from these murderers is not their pain but their remorse.

Why? And how do you propose to squeeze remorse out of someone who clearly has no regard for human life?

Is it possible to put someone through a non-harmful mental exercise that would cause him to recognize the depth of the harm he has done?

I imagine it is possible, I just don’t see a need for it.

 Signature 

The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 January 2008 09:43 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3255
Joined  2004-12-24
Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 27 January 2008 11:49 PM

It always morbidly amuses me that most if not all of those who are against capital punishment are for torturing someone for the rest of his or her existence by locking him or her in a cage and, at the very least, depriving him or her healthy sensory input, as if that’s so much more humane than a quick death. This is tantamount to torturing a rabid dog before putting it down, and any sane, conscientious person would find this reprehensible.

I think that’s highly presumptuous. It also suggests to me a lack of appreciation for the finality of death, which is huge aspect of our socialization, arguably due mostly if not entirely to the pervasive and intense religious elements.

Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 27 January 2008 11:49 PM

The alternative is rewarding the violently sociopathic criminal’s actions by providing him or her a comfortable existence which is utterly undeserved.

“Rewarding?” I think that’s a bit of a stretch, but ut’s completely irrelevant to what’s best for society as a whole in any case.

Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 27 January 2008 11:49 PM

As far as who should be put to death, only those whose guilt of profoundly heinous crimes is indisputable should be put to death in the most humane way possible.

The biggest problem with that are the standards of guilt our legal system actually functions under (i.e. in practice rather than theory). The standard I’m pretty sure you’re suggesting just isn’t practicable. The other major problem I can see is also systemic—the alleged fact that it costs more than a life sentence to execute someone. When a society would rather spend more of its resources to kill someone than to just keep them safely away from harming anyone, I’d argue there’s a pretty fundamental problem in that society’s ethos.

Byron

 Signature 

“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 January 2008 10:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3208
Joined  2007-04-26
Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 28 January 2008 02:32 PM

What I really want from these murderers is not their pain but their remorse.

Why? And how do you propose to squeeze remorse out of someone who clearly has no regard for human life?

My proposal involves making that person value human life. Obviously I don’t know if that would be possible.

Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 28 January 2008 02:32 PM

Is it possible to put someone through a non-harmful mental exercise that would cause him to recognize the depth of the harm he has done?

I imagine it is possible, I just don’t see a need for it.

I do. Timothy McVeigh was the modern equivalent of the heroes in Old Norse stories who laughed as their enemies cut their hearts out. That blank stare and those dead eyes told everyone that they could take his life but they couldn’t take his soul. Not only did he die undefeated, he welcomed death because he believed it would give him martyrdom. Fuck that. For the demands of justice, his soul would be much more valuable than his life.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 January 2008 11:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
Member
Avatar
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  805
Joined  2007-08-28

He should have suffered for the suffering he caused?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 28 January 2008 02:09 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  132
Joined  2007-07-31

Eh, far be it from me to get into yet another drawn out discussion on capital punishment with people who haven’t thought their positions through and arrived at a solution to the problem that maintains any degree of consistency.

The death penalty should be reserved only for those whose guilt of profoundly heinous crimes is irrefutable, to wit the persons I previously named, et al. Again, past harvesting organs/tissues for much needed transplants for people who DON’T go around wantonly slaying their fellow humans (and, potentially, in the future, when we’re actually able to do so with usable results, to study the neurological mechanisms which cause these wastes of oxygen to do what they do in order to preempt such actions from others who exhibit these same mechanisms but have yet to act upon them ), there’s absolutely no practical reason to keep these vermin alive. Keeping these ‘people’ locked in cages is a waste of resources at best; worse, a stain on the face of the society that does such a thing; at worst leaving open the potential for them to kill again.

Again, that’s my not so humble opinion. I’m more than willing to be convinced otherwise, but I’ve been around this particular block a dozen times, and it, scant few exceptions aside, inevitably ends at the same stop sign, described in the first paragraph of this post.

 Signature 

The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 05:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3255
Joined  2004-12-24
Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 28 January 2008 07:09 PM

Eh, far be it from me to get into yet another drawn out discussion on capital punishment with people who haven’t thought their positions through and arrived at a solution to the problem that maintains any degree of consistency.

Oddly enough I get the strong sense that this translates into:
Far be it from me to get into yet another drawn out discussion on capital punishment with people who haven’t thought their positions through [sufficiently to have arrived at my conclusions].

That seems a level of presumption that requires a very religious-like faith.

Byron

[ Edited: 29 January 2008 05:40 AM by SkepticX]
 Signature 

“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 09:52 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  132
Joined  2007-07-31
SkepticX - 29 January 2008 10:19 AM
Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 28 January 2008 07:09 PM

Eh, far be it from me to get into yet another drawn out discussion on capital punishment with people who haven’t thought their positions through and arrived at a solution to the problem that maintains any degree of consistency.

Oddly enough I get the strong sense that this translates into:
Far be it from me to get into yet another drawn out discussion on capital punishment with people who haven’t thought their positions through [sufficiently to have arrived at my conclusions].

You’re more than welcome to your opinion, Byron, even if it couldn’t be any more off the mark. I couldn’t care less if you agree with me or not. I’m just looking for some consistency.

That seems a level of presumption that requires a very religious-like faith.

Which roughly translates to, “I don’t have a consistent rebuttal to your proposal, which you clearly stated was your willing-to-be-convinced-otherwise opinion, which is why I didn’t bother to tackle the second paragraph in your post, but I needed to cook up these ad hominem/red herring hybrids before they go bad, and I figured I’d toss a couple your way.”

 Signature 

The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 10:15 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3255
Joined  2004-12-24
Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 29 January 2008 02:52 PM

Which roughly translates to, “I don’t have a consistent rebuttal to your proposal, which you clearly stated was your willing-to-be-convinced-otherwise opinion, which is why I didn’t bother to tackle the second paragraph in your post, but I needed to cook up these ad hominem/red herring hybrids before they go bad, and I figured I’d toss a couple your way.”

Oh. You meant my position on the death penalty is inconsistent ... interesting.

Byron

 Signature 

“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 10:44 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3208
Joined  2007-04-26
Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 28 January 2008 02:32 PM

Inmates don’t hang themselves because they’re enjoying life.

Dumb question - why do they hang themselves? My guesses involve guilt over their crimes, a desire to escape being brutalized by other inmates, or undiagnosed psychiatric issues. Or how about the sad end of Brooks in “The Shawshank Redemption”? I don’t have the answers.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 12:43 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  132
Joined  2007-07-31
SkepticX - 29 January 2008 03:15 PM
Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 29 January 2008 02:52 PM

Which roughly translates to, “I don’t have a consistent rebuttal to your proposal, which you clearly stated was your willing-to-be-convinced-otherwise opinion, which is why I didn’t bother to tackle the second paragraph in your post, but I needed to cook up these ad hominem/red herring hybrids before they go bad, and I figured I’d toss a couple your way.”

Oh. You meant my position on the death penalty is inconsistent ... interesting.

You haven’t presented a position on capital punishment. You’ve presented a position on the inadequacies of judicial systems, and on that note I couldn’t agree with you more. Interesting, huh…

You said, “I’m against the death penalty because of what you can learn at the Innocence Project… [etc.]”

I actually agree with a great deal of what is presented on that site, more so than I’d venture you’d dare to imagine. But I’m not advocating capital punishment in situations where the system has a probable chance of wrongful conviction, in which case any argument on that site ceases to be relevant to my opinion on CP.

 Signature 

The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 12:50 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3255
Joined  2004-12-24

Well ... then ... what got you all in a wad like that?

Byron

 Signature 

“We say, ‘Love your brother…’ We don’t say it really, but… Well we don’t literally say it. We don’t really, literally mean it. No, we don’t believe it either, but… But that message should be clear.”—David St. Hubbins

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 01:00 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  132
Joined  2007-07-31

I’m in a wad? That’s news to me. grin

 Signature 

The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one.

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 01:30 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
Sr. Member
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  3208
Joined  2007-04-26
Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 29 January 2008 05:43 PM

But I’m not advocating capital punishment in situations where the system has a probable chance of wrongful conviction

What is your stance on the uneven application of capital punishment, which is separate from the issue of wrongful conviction? Capital punishment seems to be an emotional issue for everyone, including myself. When one looks beneath the veneer of the racial statistics, one sees that the determining factor for death sentences is the likability of the victim. Regardless of your stance on capital punishment in principle, would you agree that someone’s life or death should not rest on something as subjective and ephemeral as emotion?

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 02:17 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
Sr. Member
Avatar
RankRankRankRank
Total Posts:  1891
Joined  2007-12-19

I won’t give an opinion as to my stance on the death penalty at this time. However, it was interesting to see a video clip of George Bush when he was governor of Texas giving the go ahead for an executuion over the phone. He did not issue a stay and added, “He’ll have to answer to a higher authority now.” Mighty secular of him? Or, doing god’s work?

 Signature 

“This is it. You are it.”


- Jos. Campbell

Profile
 
 
Posted: 29 January 2008 03:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
Member
RankRankRank
Total Posts:  132
Joined  2007-07-31
Carstonio - 29 January 2008 06:30 PM
Jack’s Smirking Revenge - 29 January 2008 05:43 PM

But I’m not advocating capital punishment in situations where the system has a probable chance of wrongful conviction

What is your stance on the uneven application of capital punishment, which is separate from the issue of wrongful conviction?

I’m not exactly sure what you mean by ‘the uneven application of capital punishment.’

Capital punishment seems to be an emotional issue for everyone, including myself.

Sure it is, but that doesn’t preclude execution from being a necessary action for maintaining a (comprehensively) humane society.

(And by comprehensively humane, I’m referring to the disparity that exists between the countless people living in poverty, many through no fault of their own, versus the serial killer who’s given free room and board for the rest of his life at ridiculous, unnecessary costs to the rest of us who don’t go around wantonly slaying our fellow humans. To say nothing of the inhumanity of locking someone in a cage for years on end.)

When one looks beneath the veneer of the racial statistics, one sees that the determining factor for death sentences is the likability of the victim.

In other words, if I’m reading you correctly, you’re asking if I see a difference between the serial killer who kills children and the serial killer who kills other serial killers.

Sure there’s a difference. But that doesn’t absolve him of/excuse his guilt.

Regardless of your stance on capital punishment in principle, would you agree that someone’s life or death should not rest on something as subjective and ephemeral as emotion?

It’s impossible to completely remove emotion from this equation. I’d go so far as to say any law/penalty that deals with a victim or victims is based in/on emotion. But again, that does not preclude the necessity of the action.

 Signature 

The fact that life has no meaning is a reason to live - moreover, the only one.

Profile
 
 
   
2 of 6
2
 
RSS 2.0     Atom Feed