Sam Harris

bongobongo - 02 October 2008 09:31 AM

and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you

Paedophilia? Actually that’s not even mentioned, let alone forbidden in the Torah. Must be something else then. Four wives, ease of divorce, killing unbelievers wherever you find them, avocado pears, that kind of thing.

Great post Bongo!

There is a huge chasm between Christianity and the Islamic and Judaic views of life. The conversation can be pulled into minutia but the overall tone of the Torah, Tanakh, and Koran is one of execution of the unbelievers and sinners and racial purity. Christianity is much more inclusive and there is a massive difference between inducing guilt and hacking up entire populous’ including women, children, and animals. The discussion above concerning the Messiah is an incomplete comparison in the extreme and a red herring.

Just a small flavor of what one is dealing with when embracing the writings of Judaism and Islam. Under Jewish law the disciples of Jesus who were picking corn on the Sabbath would have been executed.

A few quotes perhaps:

Shemot 23: 23 For Mine angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorite, and the Hittite, and the Perizzite, and the Canaanite, the Hivite, and the Jebusite; and I will cut them off.

23:24 Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their doings; but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and break in pieces their pillars.

Shemot 35:2 Six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day there shall be to you a holy day, a sabbath of solemn rest to HaShem; whosoever doeth any work therein shall be put to death.

Vayikra 20: 9 For whatsoever man there be that curseth his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man’s wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour’s wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

20:13 And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

Harlots to be burned:

Vayikra 21:9 And the daughter of any priest, if she profane herself by playing the harlot, she profaneth her father: she shall be burnt with fire.

Interracial couples to be executed and 24,000 people were killed by god (Yahweh) because of the marriage. More would have died but the death of the couple and the 24,000 appeased god (Yahweh). Marrying anyone outside of the chosen race of Israel is a capital offense:

Bamidbar 25: 6 And, behold, one of the children of Israel came and brought unto his brethren a Midianitish woman in the sight of Moses, and in the sight of all the congregation of the children of Israel, while they were weeping at the door of the tent of meeting.

7 And when Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, saw it, he rose up from the midst of the congregation, and took a spear in his hand.

8 And he went after the man of Israel into the chamber, and thrust both of them through, the man of Israel, and the woman through her belly. So the plague was stayed from the children of Israel.

9 And those that died by the plague were twenty and four thousand.

Because of the interracial marriage god (Yahweh) orders the genocide of the Midianites:

Bamidbar 25:14 Now the name of the man of Israel that was slain, who was slain with the Midianitish woman, was Zimri, the son of Salu, a prince of a fathers’ house among the Simeonites.

15 And the name of the Midianitish woman that was slain was Cozbi, the daughter of Zur; he was head of the people of a fathers’ house in Midian.

16 And HaShem spoke unto Moses, saying:

17 ‘Harass the Midianites, and smite them;

For executing the interracial couple Phinehas and his sons (not the women of course because women are property) are blessed by god (Yahweh) with the priesthood.

Bamidbar 25: 10 And HaShem spoke unto Moses, saying:

11 ‘Phinehas, the son of Eleazar, the son of Aaron the priest, hath turned My wrath away from the children of Israel, in that he was very jealous for My sake among them, so that I consumed not the children of Israel in My jealousy.

12 Wherefore say: Behold, I give unto him My covenant of peace;

13 and it shall be unto him, and to his seed after him, the covenant of an everlasting priesthood; because he was jealous for his G-d, and made atonement for the children of Israel.’

As I have been thinking about this there are a few other things that came to mind. Specifically in regards to the prescribed treatment of women in the Torah, Tanakh, and Koran. The type of depravity and heinousness quoted below just does not exist in the New Testament.

From the Koran:

2:223 Your women are a tilth for you (to cultivate) so go to your tilth as ye will, and send (good deeds) before you for your souls, and fear Allah, and know that ye will (one day) meet Him. Give glad tidings to believers, (O Muhammad). [Have sex with your women whenever and as often as you like.]

See also:

http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/women/long.html

What is worse, Jewish doctrine as spelled out in the Torah and Tanakh is much more intolerant and barbaric toward women, slaves, children, and those not of the chosen race than Islam. If the Torah and Tanakh were followed literally then Israel and the U.S. would make Afghanistan under the Taliban look like Disneyland.

Below are a few quotes (and only a few) from the Torah and Tanakh (Old Testament). It is hate speech in the extreme. In my opinion it is a crime that these texts are protected by their supposed “religious” importance. 

Leviticus

# If a man has sex with an engaged slave woman, scourge the woman, but don’t punish the man. (Even if he raped her?) 19:20-22

# A priest’s daughter who “plays the whore” is to be burned to death. 21:9

Numbers

# The Law of Jealousies. If a man suspects his wife of being unfaithful, he reports it to the priest. The priest then makes her drink some “bitter water.” If she is guilty, the water makes her thigh rot and her belly swell. If innocent, no harm done—the woman is free and will “conceive seed.” In any case, “the man shall be guiltless from iniquity, and this woman shall bear her iniquity.” 5:11-31

# Under God’s direction, Moses’ army defeats the Midianites. They kill all the adult males, but take the women and children captive. When Moses learns that they left some live, he angrily says: “Have you saved all the women alive? Kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.” So they went back and did as Moses (and presumably God) instructed, killing everyone except for the virgins. In this way they got 32,000 virgins—Wow! (Even God gets some of the booty—including the virgins.) 31:1-54

Deuteronomy

# In the cities that god “delivers into thine hands” you must kill all the males (including old men, boys, and babies) with “the edge of the sword .... But the women ... shalt thou take unto yourself.” 20:13-14

# If you see a pretty woman among the captives and would like her for a wife, then just bring her home and “go in unto her.” Later, if you decide you don’t like her, you can “let her go.” 21:11-14

# Rules for those who have two wives: “one beloved, and another hated.” 21:15

# If a man marries, then decides that he hates his wife, he can claim she wasn’t a virgin when they were married. If her father can’t produce the “tokens of her virginity” (bloody sheets), then the woman is to be stoned to death at her father’s doorstep. 22:13-21

# If a man be found lying with a woman married to a husband, then they shall both of them die. 22:22

# If a betrothed virgin is raped in the city and doesn’t cry out loud enough, then “the men of the city shall stone her to death.” 22:23-24

# If a man rapes an unbetrothed virgin, he must pay her father 50 shekels of silver and then marry her. 22:28-29

# If a man marries a woman and later finds “some uncleanness in her,” then he can divorce her and kick her out of his house. If another man marries her and then dies, the first husband cannot marry her again. “For that is an abomination before the Lord.” 24:1-4

# If a man dies before his wife has a child, then the widow must marry her husband’s brother—whether she likes him or not, and whether she wants to or not. 25:5

# If two men fight and the wife of one grabs the “secrets” of the other, “then thou shalt cut off her hand” and “thine eye shall not pity her.” 25:11-12

# “Cursed be he that lieth with his father’s wife, because he uncovereth his father’s skirt.” (Why?) How does having sex with the father’s wife uncover the father’s skirt? Well, I guess it’s because the father owns his wife. So the offense is against him, not her. 27:20

# “The tender and delicate woman” will be forced to eat her own children “that cometh out from between her feet.” 28:56-57

Joshua
# Caleb offers to give his daughter to whoever conquers the city of Debir. Caleb’s nephew wins the contest and is given his cousin for a prize. 15:16-17

Judges

# Caleb offers to give his daughter to anyone who conquers the city of Debir. Caleb’s nephew wins the contest and is given his cousin for a prize. 1:12-13

# “Have they not divided the prey; to every man a damsel or two?” 5:30

# Gideon had 70 sons (no one knows how many daughters) “for he had many wives 8:30

# After being hit in the head with a millstone thrown by a woman, a soldier orders his armor bearer to kill him so that no one would say that a woman had killed him. 9:53-54

# When “the spirit of the Lord” comes upon Jephthah, he makes a deal with God: If God will help him kill the Ammonites, then he (Jephthah) will offer to God as a burnt offering whatever comes out of his house to greet him. God keeps his end of the deal by providing Jephthah with “a very great slaughter.” But when Jephthah returns, his nameless daughter comes out to greet him (who’d he expect, his wife?). Well, a deal’s a deal, so he delivers her to God as a burnt offering—after letting her spend a couple of months going up and down on the mountains bewailing her virginity. 11:29-39

# Manoah’s nameless wife, like so many biblical women, is barren. But an angel fixes that, and Samson is born. 13:2-3, 6, 9

# Samson sees a Philistine woman and tells his parents to “get her for me; for she pleaseth me well.” 14:1-3

# “If ye had not plowed with my heifer, ye had not found out my riddle.”
Samson called his wife a heifer. 14:18

# Samson’s father-in-law gave Samson’s wife away to a friend, since he thought Samson “hated” her. He suggests that Samson take his younger daughter instead, saying the younger one’s prettier anyway. 15:2

# After taking in a traveling Levite, the host offers his virgin daughter and his guest’s concubine to a mob of perverts (who want to have sex with his guest). The mob refuses the daughter, but accepts the concubine and they “abuse her all night.” The next morning she crawls back to the doorstep and dies. The Levite puts her dead body on an ass and takes her home. Then he chops her body up into twelve pieces and sends them to each of the twelve tribes of Israel. 19:22-30

# To find wives for the Benjamites (they were unwilling to use their own daughters), the other tribes attacked and killed all occupants of a city except for the young virgins. These virgins were then given to the Benjamites for wives. 21:7-23

Ruth

# Ruth does as Naomi says, and then at midnight Boaz wakes up and finds Ruth “at his feet.” He asks who she is, and she says, “I am Ruth thine handmaid: spread therefore your skirt over thine handmaid.” 3:7-9

# Boaz purchases Ruth to be his wife. 4:10

1 Samuel

# “He [Samuel’s father] had two wives.” Once again, by its silence, the Bible endorses polygamy. 1:2

# “The Lord had shut up her [Hannah’s] womb.” Why? The Bible doesn’t say. Maybe God had nothing better to do. 1:5

# “And Elkanah knew Hannah his wife; and the Lord remembered her [he probably said something like, “Oh yeah, she’s the one whose womb I shut up.”]. And Hannah conceived and “bare a son [Oh boy, another boy!], and called his name Samuel.” 1:19-20

# David and Saul have a contest to see who can kill the most people for God, and the women act as cheerleaders saying, “Saul has killed his thousands, and David his tens of thousands.” 18:6-7, 21:11, 29:5

# David kills 200 Philistines and brings their foreskins to Saul to buy his first wife (Saul’s daughter Michal). Saul had only asked for 100 foreskins, but David was feeling generous. 18:25-27

# The priest tells David that he and his men can eat the “hallowed” bread if “they have kept themselves at least from women.” David assures the priest that they have and that “the vessels of the young men are holy.” So it’d be OK for them to eat the holy bread. 21:4-5

# “And it came to pass about ten days after, that the Lord smote Nabal, that he died.” This was convenient for David who then took his property and his wife, Abigail. 25:38

# David takes his second wife (Abigail) after God killed her husband (Nabal). He also, at the same time, took another wife (#3), Abinam. In the meantime, Saul gave Michal (his daughter and David’s first wife) to another man. 25:41-44

# David just keeps getting more wives. God doesn’t seem to mind a bit. 30:5

2 Samuel

# David, by this time, has at least seven wives (Michal, Ahinoam, Abigail, Maacah, Haggith, Abital, and Ehlah), and he was just getting started. 3:2-5

# David says, “deliver me my wife Michal, which I espoused to me for a hundred foreskins of the Philistines.” Well, he actually paid with two hundred foreskins (see 1 Sam.18:25-27). 3:14

# Michal was bought by David with 200 Philistine foreskins (1 Sam.18:25-27), then she was “given” to Phatiel (1 Sam.25:44), and then “taken back” by David. Poor Phatiel must have loved her dearly since he “went along weeping behind her.” 3:15-16

# “And David took him more concubines and wives.” (How many? God knows I suppose, but he doesn’t tell us in the Bible.) 5:13

# David sees a woman (Bathsheba) bathing and likes what he sees. so he sends for her and commits adultery with her “for she was purified from her uncleanness.” She conceives and bears a son (of course). 11:2-5

# God is angry at David for having Uriah killed. As a punishment, he will have David’s wives raped by his neighbor while everyone else watches. It turns out that the “neighbor” that God sends to do his dirty work is David’s own son, Absalom (16:22). 12:11-12

# Ammon (David’s son) says to his half-sister Tamar, “Come lie with me, my sister.” But she resists, so he rapes her and then sends her away. Tamar, knowing that she now belongs to him (since she was a virgin), expects him to marry her, but he refuses. 13:1-22

# Absalom “went in unto his father’s concubines in the sight of all Israel.” This was according the God’s plan as announced in 2 Sam.12:11-12. 16:21-22

# To punish his ten concubines for being raped by his son, Absalom (See 16:21-22), David refuses to ever again have sex with them and forces them to “keep house” for the rest of their lives. 20:3

Brandeis should have let some sunshine in on his own religious tripe because it REALLY, REALLY, REALLY needs to be disinfected. Unfortunately for Mr. Brandeis his entire collection of religious writings would have evaporated into a toxic vapor if exposed to any kind of “disinfectant.” People are never so blind as when they are reading their own beloved and cherished hate speech.

Nice to hear from you Cooper, welcome to the forum if you haven’t already been.

I have to confess I can’t work out what your point is. Anti Torah, yes, but you seem to be pro-Christian at the same time, which is a bit unusual. Who is Brandeis?

Interesting subject.  It’s worth remembering that prior to the invention of printing, books were very rare and hard to come by.  I wonder how much access the creator(s) of the Quran had to original Torah texts, and how complete and accurate those texts were.  More to the point, would be that access to works of theology and commentary would have been extremely limited; literacy was limited, and in an peripheral region like Arabia I would guess that the completeness and authority of what works were available was extremely limited.

Not sure what my point is, except to say that the borrowing not only seems obvious once you compare the texts, it also seems quite natural once you consider the context.  We think of scholarship and research in a world where the printed word is plentiful, easily produced and reproduced, and somewhat universal.  If you have a question on a finer point of theology or doctrine, it’s easy to look it up in an “authoritative”, orthodox, source.  This would not have been true 1300 years ago; I suspect that many believers were pretty vague about what were the exact tenets of their faith.  And there weren’t many resources available to clear it up.

A small technical issue to clear up; Islam does indeed consider Jesus to be Al-Masiach, the anointed one of Jewish thought. It simply rejects the claim that the messiah is an incarnation of god. There are plenty of incoherent beliefs in Islam, but that one is pretty straightforward. Muhammad obviously was influenced by Christian and Jewish sources, just as Judaism and Christianity were influenced by Pagan sources; no religion has ever sprung up completely in a vacuum.

Abu Sayf:... no religion has ever sprung up completely in a vacuum.

  Vwell… no vwone knowz vor zertain whezzer or not a religion sprunk up completely in a vacuum. Zhere could be a Hooververse out zhere zomevwhere. Vwhat if ze mites living inside zis zyndrical universe acquired enouv conzciousness to be self-aware? Zhey might invent religions like Our Lady of Perpetual Szwirling Mizery or Ze Church of Mighty Mite inzide zis vacuum. Who knowz?

I know, I know… it’s a moaner… I shouldn’t have done it… but a dirt devil made me do it.

See what happens when I try to keep the humor clean?

isocratic infidel - 24 March 2009 01:55 AM

See what happens when I try to keep the humor clean?

And such drudgery and hard work! Why should any woman have to do it?