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women and health care politics
Posted: 30 August 2012 10:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Holy shit, you’re a follower of Plato’s “Philosophical Kings” who thinks the concept can be applied on a scale the size of the U.S.?  Your grasp of history, political science, and philosophy is weak and provincial.  You want the benefits of a strong government without paying for it and for everyone to act like you.  Romanticizing how great things were 150 years ago is still possible in America today, but you’ll need to move into Ted Kaczynski’s cabin in Montana to do it.  Have fun living off the grid but there’s no way you’re taking me with you.  I like electricity, heat, sidewalks, and restaurants.

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Posted: 30 August 2012 11:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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I’m afraid Skipshot has jumped the rail.  He was presciently eloquent, but his last post…  I think he’s mad bro.  I don’t blame him/her.

mormovies - 30 August 2012 10:02 PM

Your ideas are tired and worn out and unfortunately shared by a lot of people who think rights are derived from government.  I would NEVER visit or want to live in a third world country.  They stand for EVERYTHING I abhor.  A strong, effectual but limited government for educated, enlightened humans cannot be compared to lawless, rights-violating sham governments oppressing starving, mystical, tribal sheep!  This is not a rational, reasoned choice.  There are other choices available.  Who in their right mind wants to move to Western Europe at this point in history??  Yeah, I hear Greece is lovely this time of century…

If I may, Mormovies, you are exhibiting the same pathetic lack of understanding of good conservative ideals as so many of your modern American compatriots.  Exactly where will you get the ‘educated, enlightened humans’ for your society if the government does not fund making them so?  Do you have at least one historical example of a county with an acceptable literacy rate and a private education system?  What do you suppose makes us different from third world countries in terms of education?

Next, please get out your globe and see if you can tell me the difference between Western Europe and Greece.

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Posted: 31 August 2012 12:07 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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mormovies - 30 August 2012 10:02 PM

This is not a rational, reasoned choice.  There are other choices available.

I missed this part of your irrational rant, so let’s go back to it.  What and where are your rational, reasoned choices, besides in your head?  If your rational and reasoned choices are so great then perhaps someone else has already thought of and implemented them.  So where are they?

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Posted: 31 August 2012 07:23 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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Because I reject your old, failed ideas, I’m a psycho and labelled a follower of Plato?  This religious concept that government is a living, breathing organism that produces and distributes magic solutions to everything is something you cannot make me buy.  Government, today, is a disgusting, fiscally irresponsible body of failed human beings who have ZERO expertise or skills in anything but spewing dogmatic rhetoric.  You bring up the example of public education which is increasingly in crisis and a failure.  I haven’t even offered a solution (not do I claim to have one!) but I don’t pretend to think for a second that a politician, bureaucrat or anyone on this thread has the answer to our problems.  I refuse to fall back on the traditional, brain-dead, garbage ideas.  Yes, a government, like a religion, can oppress and scare the citizenry and bring about temporary organization and serve basic functions but there’s a time when it becomes bloated and obsolete and downright rotten.  My optimism is only in science and technology at this point in our evolution.  No more brother’s keep crap for me.  Now, you and Oprah can calm down and tear me apart…

[ Edited: 01 September 2012 05:12 AM by mormovies]
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Posted: 31 August 2012 09:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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So you have no answers to the problems you think the government has, have no examples of your government utopia, and just are generally pissed off because. . .  well. . .  you don’t say. . .  but you’re sure government has everything to do with it.  That remote cabin in Montana is waiting for you.

The status quo is working pretty well for me right now, and when I look back on my life, it always has whether I recognized it or not.  I’ve got roads, electricity, water, sewer, police, fire, schools, and a constitution pretty much everyone still agrees with.  There are no roaming bands of bandits.  Government corruption is fairly minimal.  The negative effects of poverty are abated by a social safety net.  Food is plentiful, cheap, and safe.  It’s pretty clear you take these things for granted and want them abolished or changed to fit your personal preference of having no one trust or help each other for the common good but instead depend entirely upon our wits, guile, and physical abilities.  Yeah, we did that for pretty much the entirety of human history but in the last 100 or so years decided it wasn’t working any more so we tried something else.  That something else has produced you comfortably sitting on your couch writing on history’s greatest machine for research and communication wanting to destroy it and go back to the 18th century.

Like I wrote earlier, your promised land of no government and no brother’s keeper awaits you in Somalia, Afghanistan, or the ghettoes of my hometown of Oakland, CA.  However, as an unrepentant malcontent I’m sure no matter where you go your ability to blame the world and everyone else in it for your perceived problems will go with you, along with your admitted inability to fix them.

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Posted: 31 August 2012 09:21 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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“Your ideas are tired and worn out and unfortunately shared by a lot of people who think rights are derived from government.”


I’m confused here.  If rights are not derived from government, where do they arise—are they “god-given”?  Imagine a situation where a government refuses to enforce laws regarding individual or (despite your protestations) collective liberties.  Where are your rights then?  Unless you are willing to be the guarantor of your own “rights” through individual force of arms you’re going to have to depend on government—or, perhaps, god will protect you.

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Posted: 31 August 2012 10:51 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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mormovies - 30 August 2012 10:02 PM

Your ideas are tired and worn out and unfortunately shared by a lot of people who think rights are derived from government.  I would NEVER visit or want to live in a third world country.  They stand for EVERYTHING I abhor.  A strong, effectual but limited government for educated, enlightened humans cannot be compared to lawless, rights-violating sham governments oppressing starving, mystical, tribal sheep!  This is not a rational, reasoned choice.  There are other choices available.  Who in their right mind wants to move to Western Europe at this point in history??  Yeah, I hear Greece is lovely this time of century…


“Government” is not a thing.
It is an idea.
There are no such things as “rights”.
They are an idea.
They do not arise out of anything.

 

 

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Posted: 31 August 2012 02:37 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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Skipshot - 30 August 2012 05:28 PM
The Wrath - 14 August 2012 04:39 PM

I am a staunch rationalist, and often find myself at odds with the rest of the rationalist community on this issue.

Rationalism is what rationalism does, and the first sign of rationalist arrogance is to declare one to be a “staunch rationalist” in your introductory post to a new forum, therefore you’re starting with me with negative points.

The Wrath - 14 August 2012 04:39 PM

Even in a system where the government has a responsibility to provide health care, I’m not seeing how reproduction falls in the same category as catastrophic illnesses and the care needed to prevent them.

And you lose more points here.  You somehow agree that government provided health care is a good thing but don’t want to include pregnancy in the realm of medicine because. . .  well. . .  someone seeking to have a good time and ends up with a medical condition as a result doesn’t deserve government provided health care due to “irresponsibility.”  This is nonsense because no where in your argument is an explanation of why sexual activity is exempt from any other form of enjoyment which may cause a medical condition, including falling down the stairs at the opera.

Your first two points are unnecessarily hostile and put more emphasis on attacking me as a person than on answering the questions I posed.  I don’t really care if you give me “negative points,” and this is not a reasonable way to respond to someone just becaue they espouse different political opinions than your own.  This is precisely what I hoped to avoid on this forum—given the famous reasonableness of Sam Harris.  I probably hold a much different political philosophy than you, which is fine.  We can disagree and argue our points, but there is no cause to be a dick.

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Posted: 31 August 2012 08:12 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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“I’m confused here…”

Yes, you are confused… big time.  Rights are not derived from government.  That is an ancient concept.  Rights are created by man through reason and the creation of values required for survival.  Then governments were created to protect said rights.  It’s unbelievable that the concept of government derived rights still exists in the United States!  It’s totally opposite of the founding fathers, although they believed in ‘natural’ or supernatural rights.  Your concept is the basis of communism and socialism.  Are you aware of that?  Those concepts are anti-enlightenment and deny anti-Darwin.  Wow.

Governments are physical entities not ideas.  They are based on ideas, intelligent or stupid.  Idea can’t compel,  force, incarcerate or kill people.

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Posted: 31 August 2012 11:47 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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The Wrath - 31 August 2012 02:37 PM

Your first two points are unnecessarily hostile and put more emphasis on attacking me as a person than on answering the questions I posed.  I don’t really care if you give me “negative points,” and this is not a reasonable way to respond to someone just becaue they espouse different political opinions than your own.  This is precisely what I hoped to avoid on this forum—given the famous reasonableness of Sam Harris.  I probably hold a much different political philosophy than you, which is fine.  We can disagree and argue our points, but there is no cause to be a dick.

If pointing out arrogance is being a dick then I am guilty. 

Stating people have different opinions is pointing out the obvious and doesn’t support your claim to be a rationalist. 

Not appreciating your opinion being attacked and claiming an attack is unreasonable is intellectually weak and unreasonable.

Responding to my arguments with an ad hominem is a logical fallacy.

Failing to address my counter points when you specifically asked for them is intellectually weak and unreasonable.  Do you have a response to my argument or are you going to continue to play the victim for sympathy points?

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Posted: 01 September 2012 12:29 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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mormovies - 31 August 2012 08:12 PM

“I’m confused here…”

Yes, you are confused… big time.  Rights are not derived from government.  That is an ancient concept.  Rights are created by man through reason and the creation of values required for survival.  Then governments were created to protect said rights.

I’m probably wasting my time responding since your reading comprehension is fairly poor and your arguments are lifted from Libertarian bumper stickers, but you have just agreed completely with Wreck’s point.  Read the posts again and you will find they are nearly identical.

mormovies - 31 August 2012 08:12 PM

It’s unbelievable that the concept of government derived rights still exists in the United States!  It’s totally opposite of the founding fathers, although they believed in ‘natural’ or supernatural rights.  Your concept is the basis of communism and socialism.  Are you aware of that?  Those concepts are anti-enlightenment and deny anti-Darwin.  Wow.

Governments are physical entities not ideas.  They are based on ideas, intelligent or stupid.  Idea can’t compel,  force, incarcerate or kill people.

And with that you proudly wear as a badge of honor your profound misunderstanding of history, political science, and philosophy.  You have a long way to go, don’t know it, and are well on your way to greater disappointments, and I will not be joining you on your journey into finding ways to lay blame for your disillusions.

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Posted: 01 September 2012 12:37 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Hey, The Wrath, I found an SNL representation of our discussion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3t-DuN8t6U&feature=youtube_gdata_player

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Posted: 01 September 2012 05:10 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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I’m confused here.  If rights are not derived from government, where do they arise—are they “god-given”?  Imagine a situation where a government refuses to enforce laws regarding individual or (despite your protestations) collective liberties.  Where are your rights then?  Unless you are willing to be the guarantor of your own “rights” through individual force of arms you’re going to have to depend on government—or, perhaps, god will protect you.

>>> Learn to read.  I’m not in agreement with the above statement.  A right’s existence doesn’t depend on government enforcement or subsidy.  Rights can easily and most often ARE violated by government!  I believe one of government’s legit purposes is to protect rights, not create them and hand them out!  Laws have nothing to do with rights, they aren’t the same thing.  Laws can be and often are subjective and arbitrary.  Rights are or should be facts based on observable reality.  Yes, sometimes (often) the exercise of rights must be fought for by an individual or group of individuals.  Believe what you what to believe.  I’m against group rights and the warped Jesus/Marxist idea that government must confiscate one individual’s property to ‘provide’ rights to another individual, in concept and practice.  This so-called confusion is why this country sucks.

[ Edited: 01 September 2012 05:16 AM by mormovies]
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Posted: 01 September 2012 08:12 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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Mormovies, please stop hijacking The Wrath’s thread with irrelevant issues and start another if you wish to continue your discussion.

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Posted: 01 September 2012 10:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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Mormovies,


You need to take a deep breath, wipe the foam off your mouth, and try (really hard) to move toward rationality.  Since you state that you believe in Science, and since you maintain there are innate rights would you please provide some minimal proof.  Where do those rights reside?


It’s also interesting that in a previous post you contend “There is no such thing as ‘group’ or collective rights.”  Then, in a more recent post, you declare “I’m against group rights and the warped Jesus/Marxist idea… “  How do you reconcile that?  How can you be against something that you don’t believe exists?


My third point, (one I’m sure you’ll reject) is that you almost certainly utilize the commons every day of your life—the public highways?  The public education system?  The postal system and myriad other government services?  Isn’t it a bit hypocritical to be against something that you depend on daily?  Of course, if you were a true libertarian, you’d forego those services.  And forget about the police and military who are guaranteeing your rights—you don’t need them either.  You can do it on your own.  Of course you can.

[ Edited: 01 September 2012 10:09 AM by Wreck of M Deare]
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