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Posted: 23 November 2012 12:25 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Rami Rustom - 22 November 2012 09:54 PM

Because only a small percentage of self-identified Christians attend Church or go to a private Christian school. And even among this group, their actions (and thus their values) don’t mimic the Bible literally.

Most Christians go to church and all that can afford it send their kids to Christian schools.

GenerousGeorge - 22 November 2012 05:41 PM

Consider Europe. They are not Bible thumpers. Your view seems to be extrapolated from just Texas.

You did not confine your statement to Europe. I don’t live in europe, I base my comments on Christianity from Christians in the USA. (where we both reside) You made a universal statement that .....  “christians no longer considered the Bible the literal word of God”  You are wrong about that YES or NO??

You’re right. I think you’re referring to this: “One important difference between today’s Muslims and today’s Christians is that among Muslims, they have a tradition of taking their holy book literally, while Christians have gotten rid of that tradition a long time ago.”

I should have said “most Christians have gotten rid of that tradition a long time ago. That tradition of taking their holy book literally is much more widespread among Muslims. Also, among the literal Muslims and Christians, the Muslim group produces more problems than the Christian group does. And those problems are caused by evil actions. This is the point I was trying to make.

In my experience most Christians believe the Bible to be the literal word of God. As I said earlier, the difference is that many, many more Muslims act on that literal word, even in the most radical ways. As I said, it is a mater of degree and the Christians of hundreds of years ago acted as many more Muslims do today. Still their is a significant number of Muslims who, like Christians state they believe their holy books literally, but do not act on the more radical parts. Perhaps in hundreds of years they may act less like the more radical Muslims and more like the Christians of today. After all is said and done, humans act subjectively on their holy books all the while proclaiming their literal accuracy.

GenerousGeorge - 22 November 2012 04:22 PM

This is causing you to lose a lot of credibility with me.

Truth is not determined by credibility.

No, but truth establishes credibility and when you affirm things that are obviously untrue, you lose credibility with everything you claim to have extensive knowledge on.

I don’t want you to consider my ideas on credibility. Please consider my creditability to be zero, or whatever the lowest number on your scale is. I want you to consider my ideas on the merit of them alone. I want you to question and criticize every flaw you see.

GenerousGeorge - 22 November 2012 04:22 PM

My son goes to Christian school. They teach that the Bible is the literal word of God.

So, do they think that they should kill apostates? [I only mention this because you said that the “kill apostate” idea can be found in the Bible.]

If you asked them, they would weasel around the answer, and make excuses but still maintain the Bible as the literal word of God? You sometimes ask questions to avoid the main issue. In this case, in case you have forgotten it is whether or not many, many Christians regard the Bible as the literal word of God.

A significant percentage of (maybe most) Muslims would not weasel around the answer. They come right out and declare that ex-Muslims should be killed. And some Muslims actually do kill apostates.

no doubt

Do Texan Christians kill people that have sex before marriage? Muslims do.

As I said before, it is a matter of degree.

GenerousGeorge - 22 November 2012 04:22 PM

I have gone to many, many different Christian Churches with my wife, they all preach the doctrine of a literal bible. You are greatly uninformed and grossly wrong on this issue.

I corrected the error.

You are getting closer, but still dont believe that the majority of Christians in the USA at least, attend church or regard the Bible as the literal word of God.

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Posted: 23 November 2012 07:35 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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GenerousGeorge - 23 November 2012 12:25 AM

Most Christians go to church and all that can afford it send their kids to Christian schools.

By most, I guess you mean 50+%. And thats false. In France its not even 15%. And the other Eurpean countries are similar.

GenerousGeorge - 22 November 2012 05:41 PM

In my experience most Christians believe the Bible to be the literal word of God. As I said earlier, the difference is that many, many more Muslims act on that literal word, even in the most radical ways. As I said, it is a mater of degree and the Christians of hundreds of years ago acted as many more Muslims do today. Still their is a significant number of Muslims who, like Christians state they believe their holy books literally, but do not act on the more radical parts. Perhaps in hundreds of years they may act less like the more radical Muslims and more like the Christians of today. After all is said and done, humans act subjectively on their holy books all the while proclaiming their literal accuracy.

Thats the thing. Whether or not they “claim their literal accuracy” has no bearing on whether or not they actually believe that.

GenerousGeorge - 22 November 2012 04:22 PM

You are getting closer, but still dont believe that the majority of Christians in the USA at least, attend church or regard the Bible as the literal word of God.

I didn’t make any claims about American Christians, so why did you think that I did? But now I will. I googled this:

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html#attend

> A: For years, the Gallup Research Organization has come up with a consistent figure — 40 percent of all Americans, or roughly 118 million people, who said they attended worship on the previous weekend. Recently, sociologists of religion have questioned that figure, saying Americans tend to exaggerate how often they attend. By actually counting the number of people who showed up at representative sample of churches, two researchers, Kirk Hadaway and Penny Marler found that only 20.4 percent of the population, or half the Gallup figure, attended church each weekend.


As I said earlier, you are extrapolating from Texan Christians, which are not a representative set of all Christians.


Here’s some from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance:

> Gallup International indicates that 41%[1] of American citizens report they regularly attend religious services, compared to 15% of French citizens, 10% of UK citizens,[2] and 7.5% of Australian citizens.[3]
>
> However, these numbers are open to dispute. ReligiousTolerance.org states:
>
> “Church attendance data in the U.S. has been checked against actual values using two different techniques. The true figures show that only about 21% of Americans and 10% of Canadians actually go to church one or more times a week. Many Americans and Canadians tell pollsters that they have gone to church even though they have not. Whether this happens in other countries, with different cultures, is difficult to predict.”[1]

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Posted: 23 November 2012 08:14 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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Rami Rustom - 23 November 2012 07:35 AM
GenerousGeorge - 23 November 2012 12:25 AM

Most Christians go to church and all that can afford it send their kids to Christian schools.

By most, I guess you mean 50+%. And thats false. In France its not even 15%. And the other Eurpean countries are similar

.

I did not say most Christians go to church every weekend. I guarantee 50% + go at least once a month.I confess, I don’t know what the figures are in other countries. My reality is the USA, Hopefully, you are right and that is a trend that could spread to the USA. (Especially the “Mega Churches) I thought we were discussing the USA as that is where we both live.

GenerousGeorge - 22 November 2012 05:41 PM

In my experience most Christians believe the Bible to be the literal word of God. As I said earlier, the difference is that many, many more Muslims act on that literal word, even in the most radical ways. As I said, it is a mater of degree and the Christians of hundreds of years ago acted as many more Muslims do today. Still their is a significant number of Muslims who, like Christians state they believe their holy books literally, but do not act on the more radical parts. Perhaps in hundreds of years they may act less like the more radical Muslims and more like the Christians of today. After all is said and done, humans act subjectively on their holy books all the while proclaiming their literal accuracy.

Thats the thing. Whether or not they “claim their literal accuracy” has no bearing on whether or not they actually believe that.

I disagree, it does have great bearing. This is why I say that. There is so much contradictary information in the Bible, nobody could follow it literally no matter how much they believed in the “literal word of god” doctrine or not. Therefore claiming a literal belief does not depend on whether or not they actually act on all the doctrine or not as that is just impossible.

They believe it as the “party line”, many do not literally follow the literal guide of the Bible. The Bible has so much contradictary information in it nobody could actually follow it literally, no matter how much they want or try to. Lucky for them they can “Cherry Pick” to find the guidance they want and follow that literally. Still, in a cult like way, they claim belief in a literal Bible and that is the “glue” that holds the cult/Christianity together.”


Just as all Muslims claim their holy book is the literal word of God, they also do not all follow the guidelines. They just cannot express that for fear of their lives, Christians (that I know) also cannot express difference from the party line for fear they and their businesses will be ex-communicated from their peers. (formally or informally) As I expressed earlier, it is mostly just a matter of degree for the difference between Muslims and Christians.


I believe the cult like conformity of both religions is evil and wrong. The Christians (in the USA) are just somewhat held in check by society and Western civilization standards. The meme/mechanism that keeps their cult together is still dangerous, wrong and evil. They don’t burn witches any more, but they still bomb abortion clinics, brain wash their children and fight for a political Theocracy where they will have more contol to promote their cult.

GenerousGeorge - 22 November 2012 04:22 PM

You are getting closer, but still dont believe that the majority of Christians in the USA at least, attend church or regard the Bible as the literal word of God.

I didn’t make any claims about American Christians, so why did you think that I did? But now I will. I googled this:

I assumed wrongly you were referring to the USA.

http://hirr.hartsem.edu/research/fastfacts/fast_facts.html#attend

> A: For years, the Gallup Research Organization has come up with a consistent figure — 40 percent of all Americans, or roughly 118 million people, who said they attended worship on the previous weekend. Recently, sociologists of religion have questioned that figure, saying Americans tend to exaggerate how often they attend. By actually counting the number of people who showed up at representative sample of churches, two researchers, Kirk Hadaway and Penny Marler found that only 20.4 percent of the population, or half the Gallup figure, attended church each weekend.

As I said earlier, you are extrapolating from Texan Christians, which are not a representative set of all Christians.

“Figures don’t lie, but liars figure.” 20% may very well be right for those that attend every weekend. If your definition of a Christian is one who attends church “every weekend”, your figures are correct. If it is once a month, then 50% + will be more correct.  Same problem with polls to determine who is Alcoholic or not. People devise standards and definitions for polls to get the results they desire.


Here’s some from wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Church_attendance:

> Gallup International indicates that 41%[1] of American citizens report they regularly attend religious services, compared to 15% of French citizens, 10% of UK citizens,[2] and 7.5% of Australian citizens.[3]
>
> However, these numbers are open to dispute. ReligiousTolerance.org states:
>
> “Church attendance data in the U.S. has been checked against actual values using two different techniques. The true figures show that only about 21% of Americans and 10% of Canadians actually go to church one or more times a week. Many Americans and Canadians tell pollsters that they have gone to church even though they have not. Whether this happens in other countries, with different cultures, is difficult to predict.”[1]

[ Edited: 23 November 2012 08:17 AM by GenerousGeorge]
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Posted: 01 December 2012 03:48 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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Rami Rustom - 22 November 2012 04:01 PM
GenerousGeorge - 22 November 2012 03:46 PM

How do you know that? The problem is the cultish programming that makes people act in unreasonable ways. Even though Christians are more “civilized” they are still puppets with the potential for evil.


Yes. But Islamic programming is worse than Christian programming.


For example, the Quran instructs Muslims to kill apostates. The Bible doesn’t.

Oh yes it does. I guess you missed that day in class. In fact, Jesus H. Christ tells his followers to break up their families and divest themselves of non-believers, even if they’re your parents.


So much for “honour thy mother and thy father . . .”


Not that he really existed (he didn’t), but if he did, he’d have been a right prick.

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Posted: 20 December 2012 02:05 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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Rami Rustom - 22 November 2012 08:43 AM
GenerousGeorge - 22 November 2012 08:32 AM

The difference between Muslim and Christian is just a matter of degree. The Muslims are the Christians of 200 years ago.


More like 400 or 1,000 years ago.


Today’s Christian morality is waaaay better than today’s Islamic morality.


And the morality of Christians at the time Christianity was created is waaaay better than the morality of Muslims at the time Islam was created.

Hardly.  Passive-aggressive positions are the most dangerous.  At least with Islam, my guard never drops.

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Posted: 20 December 2012 07:38 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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All religion is evil. All religions pretend to be wonderful, loving and kind, and all contribute to senseless, intractable violence.

The only way to fix the world’s problems is to get rid of religion and other forms of kookery. Faith itself is the root of all evil.

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Posted: 20 December 2012 07:54 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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gsmonks - 20 December 2012 07:38 PM

All religion is evil. All religions pretend to be wonderful, loving and kind, and all contribute to senseless, intractable violence.

The only way to fix the world’s problems is to get rid of religion and other forms of kookery. Faith itself is the root of all evil.

Amen.

The one thing that gives me comfort is knowing that no one worships Zeus anymore.  Gods do die.

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