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Devil Worship in the 19th Century
Posted: 30 May 2005 04:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 16 ]  
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Mark Starr, I’ll stick to my conclusion that you can’t read and/or read into things what you want to see there. You truly do not know what you’re talking about, and it isn’t going to be possible for anyone to get through to you. Theosophy is not devil worship. Neither is the Golden Dawn. Both are take-offs from the Western Esoteric traditions, plus an attempt to assimilate the new knowledge of Eastern religions that was flooding into the West at the time; a quest for a universal religion, what sometimes get called the “universal philosophy.” Neither Theosophy nor the Golden Dawn qualify as cults. Alexander Scriabin wrote his “Black Mass” as a musical contrast to his “White Mass.” Neither was intended as having religious significance or use, but you’re not capable of understanding subtle distinctions. An interest in the esoteric or in other traditions is not devil worship. Devil worship involves specifically—worshipping the devil.

You’re looking for devils and witches in every closet, and the world has had enough of that. You’re letting an inflamed imagination run away with you, and that can become very dangerous. Please lets not start any more witch hunts.

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Posted: 30 May 2005 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 17 ]  
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[quote author=“Anonymous”]Thank you, Mark.

Hopefully, we now realize the threat of Muslims and Satanists.  We can also recognize many examples of cult behavior.  We can surely understand that cult behavior can be dangerous to societies.

We are grateful for your insight and your concerns.  We shall no longer fool ourselves concerning the consequences of religious dogma.  Maybe we’ll even write a book.  Perhaps something about the End of Faith?

You’re welcome.
Mark Starr

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Posted: 30 May 2005 04:32 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 18 ]  
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[quote author=“MJ”]Alexander Scriabin wrote his “Black Mass” as a musical contrast to his “White Mass.”

I’ve played both piano sonatas.


[quote author=“MJ”]

Neither was intended as having religious significance

 

Oh?  And how would you know what Scriabin intended?

Mark Starr

[ Edited: 30 May 2005 08:25 PM by ]
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Posted: 30 May 2005 07:39 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 19 ]  
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He is a deceiver who comes as an angel of light. The bible teaches that:
1. Christ came to destroy the devil.
2. The devil is that which had the power of death.
3. Christ partook of human nature and died in order to destroy the devil.
4. In doing so he delivered others from the power of the devil and of death.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (James 4:7)

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 30 May 2005 08:24 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 20 ]  
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[quote author=“TheChampion”]Submit yourselves therefore to God. (James 4:7)

No thank you.
Mark Starr

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Posted: 30 May 2005 08:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 21 ]  
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Hi Mark Starr…....it really makes me sad to hear that, really….

But I defer back to this:

This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God. John 3:19-21

The Amplified says it more clearly (if that is possible):

The [basis of the] judgment (indictment, the test by which men are judged, the ground for the sentence) lies in this: the Light has come into the world, and people have loved the darkness rather than and more than the Light, for their works (deeds) were evil.(C)

For every wrongdoer hates (loathes, detests) the Light, and will not come out into the Light but shrinks from it, lest his works (his deeds, his activities, his conduct) be exposed and reproved.

But he who practices truth [who does what is right] comes out into the Light; so that his works may be plainly shown to be what they are—wrought with God [divinely prompted, done with God’s help, in dependence upon Him].

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 31 May 2005 05:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 22 ]  
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TChamp - your plea is so desperate that it actually stinks!

Bob

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It’s definitely a moon! . . . and now it’s become a sunflower!

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Posted: 31 May 2005 06:01 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 23 ]  
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[quote author=“CanZen”]TChamp - your plea is so desperate that it actually stinks!

Bob

Canzen, what plea, this?

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. James 4:7

Desperation is good. Desperate people get from A to Z quicker than content people. By the way, did you, will you, are you…James 4:7?

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 31 May 2005 09:41 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 24 ]  
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This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God

Change the last word to “Science,” and I agree completly!

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http://powerlessnolonger.com

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Posted: 31 May 2005 11:38 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 25 ]  
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Revenons Ă  nos moutons.

What is interesting to note between the blatherings of our recent visitor from the cult of Christianity and the theoretical writings of the Theosophists, the Golden Dawn, Aleister Crowley and The Church of Satan is their utter incomprehensibility.  They demand that we suspend not merely our reason but also our experience and our sensibililities.  At the gate of religion, first check your brain before you enter.

Regards
Mark Starr

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Posted: 31 May 2005 12:25 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 26 ]  
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I know I’m not bible knowledgable, but now I’m really confused.

The Champion said:
He is a deceiver who comes as an angel of light. The bible teaches that:

1. Christ came to destroy the devil.   So he failed?
2. The devil is that which had the power of death.  But death still exists…
3. Christ partook of human nature and died in order to destroy the devil.  But I have always been told he died to save us from our sins?
4. In doing so he delivered others from the power of the devil and of death.  So if he destroyed him and delivered others from his power and from death, why are you saying there is still a devil?  And I know for sure there is still death!

So just what is all this double talk about?  I’ve been tempted to go to church lately and see what the big deal is, but, now I think you’re all just plain crazy!


Unsure (but probably saved by the bell)

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Posted: 31 May 2005 01:27 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 27 ]  
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Unsure, I am happy to answer your questions to the best of my ability. No need to be confused (be sure to check with your pastor to verify my teaching here, never just take what one says as gospel).

Glad to see you started going to church. The bible says that the Holy Spirit is drawing you to repentence. It is God who cares about you and is drawing to him. Now that you are in church you are probably on a spiritual diet of milk (as they say), allow me to give you some meat and potatoes here (but don’t worry if you don’t fully understand it now, it’ll come).

1. Christ came to destroy the devil. So he failed?

Nah, check this out: He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil’s work. 1 John 3:8

Further, speaking of Jesus, Since the children have flesh and blood, he too shared in their humanity so that by his death he might destroy him who holds the power of death—that is, the devil Hebrews 2:14

So he broke the power that Satan had over mankind. However, the devil still “prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8); this is because his time is short and he knows his final reckoning is coming. If God’s people resist him (you, me), he will flee from them (James 4:7). If you choose not to resist him, then Christ died in vain. But I know you won’t, because you want to live a Christian life.

2. The devil is that which had the power of death. But death still exists?
Nah, your body will die, but even though you physically die, yet shall you live; “to be apart from the body is to be with Jesus in heaven.”

Before Christ came, there were two places that people went to, Hades and Paradise. When Christ died on the cross, he opened Paradise and those folks moved into Heaven with him. For more on this subject, see question 1, also check the other things out:

http://www.samharris.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=255

So Christ dieing sinless and blameless on the cross was a big thing. Now he has the power:

When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. Then he placed his right hand on me and said: “Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades. Revelation 1:17-18

3. Christ partook of human nature and died in order to destroy the devil. But I have always been told he died to save us from our sins?
Yes, he died to save you from your sins. But what good would that be if the devil could have power over you. Now you have power over the devil.

4. In doing so he delivered others from the power of the devil and of death. So if he destroyed him and delivered others from his power and from death, why are you saying there is still a devil? And I know for sure there is still death!

Christ has already defeated Satan through his life, death and resurrection. After Christ’s 2nd coming, the devil’s influence in the world will cease entirely, and his defeat will be obvious to everyone. He is a being and his future home is first, the bottomless pit (for 1000 years), then the Lake of Fire at the final/Great White Throne judgement. But he is still out there, tempting, twisting, deceiving, etc. But he does not have the power as he once did. Because he is around, you must adhere to the gospel with all your heart, soul, and mind, as God wants you to do. So it appears that he fulfills a purpose in the overall picture, don’t you think?

Keep in mind, this is “meat” and as a new believer, you must start with milk (the easy stuff like John 3:16). I did this so you can meditate on it, take it home, study it for yourself, etc.

It is all laid out in the bible, you should study it every day, or you’ll never know what you’ll miss out on in this life, “my people perish for lack of knowledge.”

If you could see then you’d understand….

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Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light. Matt 11:28-29

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Posted: 31 May 2005 03:33 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 28 ]  
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At last!!!!!!!  The Champion has said ONE thing that makes sense:

            “never just take what one says as gospel”

‘Tis a miracle! rolleyes


Mark Starr

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Posted: 31 May 2005 03:57 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 29 ]  
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Are there any British out there?

I’ve been reading Bertrand Russell’s “Why I am not a Christian.”  I am very interested to find out the historical facts about one significant event in Britain that Russell mentions in this essay.

Russell wrote:

“As I said before, in the olden days [Christianity] had a much more full-blooded sense. For instance, it included the belief in hell. Belief in eternal hell fire was an essential item of Christian belief until pretty recent times. In this country, as you know, it ceased to be an essential item because of a decision of the Privy Council, and from that decision the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Archbishop of York dissented; but in this country our religion is settled by Act of Parliament, and therefore the Privy Council was able to override their Graces and hell was no longer necessary to a Christian. Consequently I shall not insist that a Christian must believe in hell.”

My questions: when did the British Parlaiment pass a law nullifying the existence of Hell?  And when did the Privy Council overrule the theological objections of the Archbishop of Cantebury and the Archbishop of York?

Also, why isn’t the day that this Act of Parlaiment made Hell illegal celebrated in England as a national holiday?

However, what concerns me most: did the British Privy Council also outlaw the existence of the Devil?  If Hell does not exist, then where does the Devil live?  Certainly not in England.  At least before the British government outlawed the existence of Hell, we all knew where one could find the Devil—in Hell.  Now, it would seem that the Devil is homeless—unless this Act of Parlaiment also decided that Satan doesn’t exist either.

So I would greatly appreciate some British Anglican helping me out with some British history.  How could such a thing have happened—Hell disappearing right before my eyes— and I did not even know about it until I read Russell’s essay.

Regards,
Mark Starr

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Posted: 31 May 2005 05:06 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 30 ]  
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Hi Champion,
1. Exactly what is sin?  Define it please.
2. So Christ came not to destroy the devil as you said, but to destroy his work?  What kind of sinning did the devil do?
3. Once again, you said that Christ’s death destroyed the devil.  Then, you said he’s still here prowling around.  Then you said that if the devil devours me, Christ will have died in vain.  Didn’t he die in vain anyway, if the devil is still around?
4. So when my body dies, I’ll still be alive?  How?  In heaven?  Where is heaven?
5. If a person was already living in paradise, why would he want to go to heaven?  I always thought paradise was a perfect place.
6. If Christ was a man, why would you think he was sinless and blameless?  Didn’t you say that all men are born in sin?  Or did I hear that somewhere else?
7. If Christ takes you to heaven, why did he say he held the keys to hades?
8. If I am sin free (because of Christ), how would the devil have power over me? 
9. If satan is already defeated by Christ, how is he still that powerful?
10. If satan is a being, has anyone ever seen him?  What does he look like?  How would I recognize him?
11. Fulfills a purpose?  Is he here to force me to love God?  Must God force people to do as he wants?
12. If I could see what, then I would understand what?

I greatly appreciate your attention to my questions, but I’m afraid all this stuff is just too complicated for someone like me to understand.  The things you say don’t make much sense at all and don’t go along with anything I’ve seen and known about life.  When I’ve been to church, they don’t talk about this stuff either.  I know about John 3:16, but I was always taught that you don’t kill animals and you don’t kill people, and I can’t imagine anyone so cruel as to kill his ownliest son.  Why in the world do christian people think god is so wonderful because he killed his son?  Champion, I know you’re not going to be able to answer most of my questions, but thanks anyway.  I guess I was looking for all the good stuff that’s supposed to be in the bible, not the bad stuff.  There’s enough bad stuff all around, and I had the idea that religion was supposed to be about good stuff that makes people happy and loving.  Sorry to bother you.

unsure

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