Sam Harris.org Reader Forum

Nostrae Aetate…Vatican support for Islam

2013-04-09T00:25:45+00:00

Strange how the Catholic Church will not allow the private visions of her members to alter her dogma (e.g. Francis of Assisi) and yet it was St. Paul’s private visions of Jesus that moved the Ebionites (friends, family and followers of Jesus) from seeing Jesus as messiah to God incarnate…how does the Islam issue enter here? Islam holds what the Apostles believed about Jesus before St. Paul’s PRIVATE visions! At Vatican Council II the Catholic Church then gives support to Islam in Nostra Aetate…lots of contradictions here.

When debating Muslim apologists, beware the ruse “it’s not in the quran, therefore it’s not Islam”. It’s subterfuge.

2013-01-16T03:17:23+00:00

The quran orders all people to obey Allah and His Messenger (5:92). Accordingly, there are two pillars on which ‘Islam’ stands: the quran, and what Muhammad ibn Abdullah (‘Prophet’ Muhammad) instructs. Islam’s most invidious aspects almost invariably derive from Muhammad’s commands, not the quran. This does not mean Muhammad’s instructions, codified in the hadith and applied by shariah (‘sunnah’, meaning tradition), are any less a part of Islam than the quran.

Muhammad’s instructions are indeed more important to Islam than the quran itself. You can easily practice Islam without a quran because Muhammad’s instructions (such as how to use a toilet, which foot to enter a room with, what to invoke when putting putting your shirt on) are detailed (totalitarian?) enough. But it is impossible to practice Islam with just a quran. This is because the quran is a frustratingly vague book of poetry.

Apologists may respond by saying that when the quran and sunnah conflict, the quran takes precedence, for only the quran is the direct word of god. Wrong. The quran prescribes only two- contradictory- punishments for adultery: immurement, and lashings. Muhammad prescribes death. Death has always been the mandatory punishment under Islamic law, and believers lose no sleep over this contradiction, by parroting that Islam orders following Allah and his Messenger. Thus the a person who rejects the Messenger rejects Islam. The Christian equivalent to these circumlocutions are the Orthodox and Catholic sects, which state that Christianity means following Jesus and his Church.

No mainstream ‘quran alone’ sect that rejects or limits Muhammad’s instructions exists. The few followers there are are labelled misguided, heretics, and non-Muslim by orthodox Muslims. Quran-alone Muslims reason that they are not bound by any of Muhammad’s purpoted instructions as these were codified only three centuries after his death, are contradictory, and are not specifically prescribed by the quran. But this freedom to jettison Muhammad results in some interesting results. Some quran-alone Muslims pray towards Jerusalem rather than Makkah (as the quran doesn’t bother specifying which mosque Muslims worldwide are to face in prayer); some pray only three times daily (quran never specifies how often to pray); and a multitude of further abberations from the mainstream Islam envisioned by Muhammad (and therefore by Allah).

Liberal Muslim apologists may state that quran-alone Muslims have the right to do so. But this means an abnegation of what Muhammad himself instructed: to kill heretics, and defend Muhammad’s own instructions . Apologists then refer to the ‘science of hadith’, whereby the less flattering accounts of Muhammad’s sunnah is labelled ‘weak’ and so in effect washed away from the record, and the less embarrassing ones are labelled ‘strong’ or ‘good’. This ‘science’ is based on the reliability of the story teller’s personality(!) and how long the chain of narration is. It’s not the unbeliever’s fault that Islam is such a disordered collection of texts and writings based on a hopelessly flawed chain of narration, as that’s something for Muslims to sort out themselves (which is itself impossible). But to deny that this corpus of confusion forms part of what ‘Islam’ is meant to be just because it’s not included in the quran is to deconstruct Islam to such a state that Islam no longer exists. And you can’t even hide solely behind a quran regardless, as the quran says to follow these supplementary instructions.

So when an apologist denies Islam’s more oppressive aspects beneath the pavis “it is not in the quran”, ask whether it is instructed by the Muhammad instead. It almost invariably is, and Muhammad’s non-quranic instructions are Islam itself.

Possession, Jinn and Britain’s backstreet exorcists

2012-11-19T20:10:52+00:00

Interesting, but sadly not surprising…

—-
Possession, Jinn and Britain’s backstreet exorcists

By Catrin Nye
BBC Asian Network and BBC Newsnight

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20357997

Islamic Meteorology

2012-10-31T21:14:10+00:00

http://www.crescent-online.net/ana.php

If you’re too dumb to be able to understand the science behind the weather, it’s highly likely you’ll spend your life saying a lot of dumb things.

A Short Self Introduction

2012-10-24T23:40:39+00:00

Hey everyone,

There was no “introduce yourself” section on the forums, so I thought I might as well introduce myself here.

I used to be a devout, practicing Muslim for over 20 years.

Even though I was always a skeptic, my faith only started eroding over the past 7 years.

I am now a strident atheist, helping other ex-Muslims with the ensuing struggles that occur when they lose their faith. I also help them escape situations that are potentially life-threatening if their apostasy was made public. I am also undertaking a fairly daunting project that will aim to tell their stories as well.

I’ve come here to ask you a few simple questions:

1- Using your current knowledge of Islam and its current state, what do you think it will take for Muslims to take steps towards accepting apostates among them?

2- How can Islam progressively become as relatively less-harmful to the development of societies as Christianity is? Granted, Christianity can have severe consequences if its version of the world were to creep into classrooms, but you don’t see a pastor shooting a 14-year old girl in the face for carrying a book.

We’ll start with those to get this discussion going!

crime massage of the slogan ” behead all them who insult islam”

2012-09-24T09:34:25+00:00

what we can see between peace direction and violent direction to solve are problem.

And yet Mittens vows to block our porn.

2012-09-20T07:18:09+00:00

I greatly appreciate Sam Harris’ take on this issue, but Romney is nothing but a deluded shill who has already contradicted every possible shred of credit he could be due for defending free speech, freedom of religion, or any other freedom except freedom from paying taxes.

Sam completely fucked up giving Romney even an iota of credit.

It is not enough that Romney whimpered about Obama’s hesitation here. As Sam points out himself, only a complete message can suffice in this circumstance:

There can be no limits to free speech, FOR ANY REASON, NO EXCEPTIONS, RELIGION INCLUDED!

As you can see, this is not a message Romney can spread. But any less fails to meet the real minimum need of spreading the truth, any less falls fatally short of what is absolutely required here.

As it stands, Romney’s whining was at best a minor and accidental resemblance to this true message, motivated by nothing but shallow political opportunity. Romney cannot possibly speak the whole truth here, and even if he mouthed the words they would be a blatant lie on his lips, because we can all be fully assured he would sell out free speech in a heartbeat, just as he has repeatedly promised to do, in service to his cult and kindred fundamentalist cultists of all stripes.

Remember, one man’s porn is another man’s religion (69 FTW!), and you can’t claim to support freedom of speech and freedom of thought if you aim to impose your disagreement about which is which on me.

The Problem of Islam

2012-09-16T17:16:37+00:00

Is Sam being too hard on Islam in this Huffington Post piece?

Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

Which Quran to Buy?

2012-09-15T12:05:05+00:00

Hi everyone, I ran some searches but didn’t find my answer. I want to read the Quran but I don’t want a watered down translation. Can anyone recommend what copy I should buy?

madness reigns again

2012-09-12T21:42:44+00:00

With the new acts of violence against the west spurned by a blasphemous video, it’s time for Sam to speak up again. When he’s not fumbling with notions of free will, Sam is the best at attacking the dangers of faith.

This is a grim article on the normal standards of ritual violence in the middle east. Pretty much still in the stone age.
http://www.anthropoetics.ucla.edu/ap1202/muja07.htm