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Posted: 08 November 2008 06:16 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 46 ]  
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Immediate Suppression - 07 November 2008 03:56 PM

Have I somehow unintentionally reached an enlightened state of consciousness, as Sam talks about in The End of Faith?

If you have, now would be a good time to demonstrate it scientifically, instead of anecdotally. Go bend a spoon with it.

teuchter - 07 November 2008 08:08 PM

In the face of an obvious biological explanation, I cannot see the point in speculating that “maybe something is intervening, even though it seems very unlikely from our current narrow window of perception.”  But if you insist on trying to reason to a mystical explanation in lieu of the obvious and simple physical explanation, why complicate the process by positing that we have a “current narrow window of perception…” which presupposes some sort of future “broad window of perception.”  Huxley’s essay was fun to read 40 years ago, and was used by some to justify a lot LSD and peyote, but I doubt it is a firm enough base upon which to build your speculations that your sensory experiences transcend physical explanation.

Regrettably, Immediate, your request for further funding to study this problem has not made it into the final pool of proposals under consideration. Money is tight, and competition is stiff. You may resubmit at the next funding deadline.

One of the reviewers of your proposal had these comments:

Unbeliever - 08 November 2008 03:55 AM

You do realize Intellectual Supression that the word something, while linguistically is something, in content is nothing.

Throwing the word something without a shred of clarification is the exact same as saying everything, or nothing.

Because, something is only something if you have an explanation or piece of information that distinguishes it from nothing, and narrows it down from everything,

Supernatural spirit, or mystical are other variations of the word something spouted into sentences where the speaker intends to pass off nothing as an actual explanation.

I guess, in retrospect that makes the initial claim of this post correct, nothing is indeed intervening. Or everything if you will.

Now thats something alright.

To rephrase, the first stage in studying “something” is to tell us what you are studying. Studying everything is beyond the scope of a single research proposal, so part of the reason for its rejection is that it is simply too ambitious to make believable promises that it will succeed. Seen from another angle, it is so non-specific that you could claim any results as successful ones. That is how we classify your proposal as being in a field different from science. Sadly, your proposal is “inappropriate” in the context of the goals of this agency.

Immediate Suppression - 08 November 2008 04:36 AM

Another way of describing it would be as a slow charge of electricity passing through my spine.  And thinking about it further, I can’t say it peaks in my head, sometimes it isn’t quite like that.  So it’s pretty subjective, admittedly.  But I also know that we still know very little about this universe, so I am not going to pretend to know everything about everything, as some humans ignorantly do.

On resubmit, perhaps you will include a section on what you propose to measure, and with what instrumentation you will try to measure it. There is not a division in this agency for studying “anecdotes reporting subjective sensations”.

Immediate Suppression - 08 November 2008 05:58 AM

Call it what you want, but it is scientific progress at its essence, and those who reject it outright are anti-science, anti-progress, anti-human, and pro-religious in nature.

Nope, sorry. That is why people with research proposals have to explain why they should get money to study something. Making empty accusations and using inflammatory rhetoric is not encouraging to those reviewing your proposals.

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Posted: 08 November 2008 07:49 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 47 ]  
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‘I’m not trying to describe anything mystical, even though it comes off as such.’

What a line of bull shit this is. IS you are trying to cover your metaphysical ass here.

It has to be material or mystical, there simply are no other choices.

It’s either matter or energy or…...it’s mystical/magical.

So which is it? What exactly is ‘intervening’? And don’t worry about presenting evidence as we all know you have none.

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Posted: 08 November 2008 09:19 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 48 ]  
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Jefe - 08 November 2008 01:28 PM

Hooray!  Nice to see you, Unbeliever!

Likewise, its nice to be back to having daily internet access again. smile

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Posted: 08 November 2008 10:24 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 49 ]  
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In Post 48, our friend Immediate Suppression says:

Immediate Suppression - 08 November 2008 02:16 AM
Beam_Me_Up - 07 November 2008 04:51 PM

I am skeptical. Skepticism, imo, does not mean attributing the unexplained to magic causes.

I have never directly attributed my chill up the spine to “magic causes.”

In Post 49, he objected:

Immediate Suppression - 08 November 2008 02:30 AM
teuchter - 07 November 2008 08:08 PM

But if you insist on trying to reason to a mystical explanation in lieu of the obvious and simple physical explanation

I never said mystical, I said something.

But in post 1, which kicked this little discussion off, the proposition was this:

stillasking - 21 June 2008 05:04 PM

Although I don’t believe that an all knowing, all powerfull “God” is involved in the day to day lives of human beings (what incredible ego must accompany that belief), I do see the possiblility that some kind of energy does at times intervene in people’s lives.  That energy is not all knowing or all powerfull, hence the explanation for human suffering. […]That force may have a plan that somehow involves the existence of humans to accomplish that plan and I think that plan may involve humans as a group mind.  […]I don’t think of “God” as some spiritual being but rather as a being of vastly more intelligence than any human who for some unknowable reason has a purpose for humanity.  We don’t have to love or worship this being.

So it seems we have a definitional problem here.  Most of us agree (I presume to speak for “most of us,” but I think I’m right) with McCreason:

McCreason - 08 November 2008 12:49 PM

It has to be material or mystical, there simply are no other choices.
It’s either matter or energy or…...it’s mystical/magical.

In other words, something either conforms to the laws of nature, including those we don’t yet understand, or it is, by definition, supernatural.

Since human history has demonstrated any number of phenomena thought to be supernatural to in fact conform to later understood laws of nature, but not one single time has anything been shown to “supermatural,”  I’m going with the laws of nature.

So we have gravitated (sorry I’m fixated on gravity) from a god which isn’t really a god but which has a vast intelligence and plan for all mankind, to “something” which cannot be explained by any laws of nature, presently understood or remaining to be discovered.  (and no fair saying god is a law of nature; we’ve been through that)

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Posted: 08 November 2008 12:11 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 50 ]  
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teuchter - 08 November 2008 03:24 PM

So we have gravitated from a god which isn’t really a god but which has a vast intelligence and plan for all mankind, to “something” which cannot be explained by any laws of nature, presently understood or remaining to be discovered.

Precisely.  At least not yet.

As Salt Creek pointed out in his excellent post, there has never been any type of study examining this type of phenomenon; the chill up the spine triggered by no apparent outside stimulus.

So why are you guys pretending that there has been?

Why do you naively pretend we know everything about everything in this area of study, when we obviously do not.  Maybe we’ll get there one day, and my openness to something which may be intervening will be diminished.  But so far we are not there, so quit pretending we are.

I also would like to comment on the anti-scientific approach taken by most of the “skeptics” on this thread.  The key to science is investigation, most great scientists have been great investigators. 

Instead of investigating my claims, the skeptics in this thread made up there mind right away and dismissed my claims without any investigation at all, despite the fact that there has never been any study of this type of phenomenon whatsoever.  They then relied upon personal insults, deriding condensation, or injected words into my writing I had never written, in an attempt to prove they were “right”, and I was “wrong”.  But there has been very little scientific curiosity or investigation, except for 1 or 2 questions.

Here are some questions you could have asked, had you taken a responsible scientific approach:

Have you been feeling this phenomenon your whole life?

When was the first time you experienced it?

Do you experience it when you are outside, inside, or both?

Have you ever felt it while driving a car, or while walking?

Do you experience it when other people are around?

Have you ever had any experiences with psychedelics?

If the answer is yes, Do you notice this has happenned more frequently since your use of psychedelics?

Have you ever experienced it while on psychedelics, alcohol, or any other substance?

How does it leave you feeling afterward? 

Is there anything that might indicate a pattern of thought you are having when you experience this phenomenon?

Describe some of the differences you feel between different instances of this phenomenon occurring.

These questions would have been a good place to start.  But why ask questions when it is easier just to make up your mind ahead of time, even without any past study of this phenomenon to rely upon, and jump on your skeptical high horse and pretend you have all the answers about everything, and prove you are the toughest skeptic in this forum, right?

Enjoy the self-absorbed image of yourself as the toughest skeptic, but don’t ever lie to yourself and pretend that you are a responsible scientist.  At least not with the approach many have taken on this thread.

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Posted: 08 November 2008 12:53 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 51 ]  
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Right let me se if I got this straight, no I have not read this entire thread. Because I am lazy, and reading the last posts suggested that I might not find much relevant in the previous ones. Thats why I need to clarify.

Are you in fact suggesting that the common feeling of getting a chill up your spine in certain situations is evidence of an exterior all encompassing entity?

Then you think that those of us who question your arguments, considering you have not presented any except just saying that maybe thats the explanation and just asserting that it could not possibly have evolved are all close minded.

Are you for real? Or worse are you yahun again?


This is how the rules or rational debate works. You present us with an idea, you give us real arguments or data that explains why you came to that conclusion and what you think it means. Then we look at your reasons and either reject or elaborate.

If you present an idea with no argument at all beyond your subjective hunch, we are almost obligated to reject you flat out just as a matter of principle.

The real travesty of this thread is that its not just that you have nothing to back up your speculation. Your original premise that a chilling feeling cannot be explaned evolutionary is nonsensical. First of all, thats not true. Evolution constantly causes lots of useless adaptations, thats why I said evolution is blind. Natural selection does not evolve, it does not create, it destroys.
In a nutshell, multiple factors ranging from viruses, mutations and offset dna copying creates a multitude of variations. Natural selection tends to wipe out those that are directly threatening the existance of the life form, but all the adaptations that does not kill you will be with you regardless of utility. Even more, since evolution operates over generations, and you are just one generation. You cannot possibly know which genetic qualities will in fact disappear because natural selection has not yet had much of a say on our biology in this particular instant.
And its likely irrelevant at this point as we do not live in nature as much as we used to.

But its also a ridiculous assertion from your part for a different reason. You cannot apply evolutionary biology on its own to the human brain. More layers of scientific theories needs to be applied to the development of the brain, and not all of the necessary ones are even available yet.

To say that there could be no inherent explanation within either genetics or neurology for a “sensation” that originates in the most complicated organ in the entire biosphere is just absurd.
Every single emotion you have is evidence that yout brain is playing tricks on you. There is no clear evolutionary reason for music, and it might be a safe bet to say that music is a result of brain development and purely coincidental connections between various mental functions that have existed far longer. You do not need a spiritmonster to account for music, even if we can not yet fully explain how creativity has developed.

Considering everything we know about our mental faculties are located in the brain, it is not close minded to assume that they all do until we have any kind of information to suggest otherwise. Especially considering the multitudes of tests that have been carried out to identify out of brain connections. Tests that have all reavealed nothing at all.

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Posted: 08 November 2008 04:21 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 52 ]  
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Immediate Suppression - 03 November 2008 05:36 PM

And yet again, no conclusive scientific explanation for the chill up my spine I feel sometimes during moments of inspiration.

rolleyes

Immediate

What’s the conclusive scientific explanation for why some animals have hymens (humans, horses, stick insects, dogs, tapeworms, and a few others) and most don’t (among them cats, camels, and houseflies)?

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Posted: 08 November 2008 04:31 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 53 ]  
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Immediate Suppression - 04 November 2008 05:23 PM

I haven’t heard of anyone else who gets these types of feelings.

What the hell is that supposed to mean?  That you don’t talk to many other people, is all I can imagine.  I don’t know of anyone who doesn’t feel a chill, at times, when having a creative rush, or being “in the zone”, or feeling particularly inspired.

A study like that would be useful, but might still be inconclusive on a study based on such subjective evidence, which means there is still the possibility that….

something may be intervening

You seem to think that something may be intervening with you in particular, since you’ve never heard of anyone else having such feelings.

I hope I have misunderstood.

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Posted: 08 November 2008 04:34 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 54 ]  
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Immediate Suppression - 04 November 2008 06:11 PM

Another possibility is a paranormal explanation, i.e. no clear scientific explanation.

Oh, okay.  I get it.  Sorry to have bothered you.

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Posted: 08 November 2008 05:10 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 55 ]  
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Immediate Suppression - 08 November 2008 05:11 PM

the chill up the spine triggered by no apparent outside stimulus.

You have been DESCRIBING the outside stimuli, you moron.

Instead of investigating my claims,

What claims?  Did you even understand Salt Creek’s post?

Immediate Suppression - 08 November 2008 05:11 PM

Here are some questions you could have asked, had you taken a responsible scientific approach:

Have you been feeling this phenomenon your whole life?

When was the first time you experienced it?

Do you experience it when you are outside, inside, or both?

Have you ever felt it while driving a car, or while walking?

Do you experience it when other people are around?

Have you ever had any experiences with psychedelics?

If the answer is yes, Do you notice this has happenned more frequently since your use of psychedelics?

Have you ever experienced it while on psychedelics, alcohol, or any other substance?

How does it leave you feeling afterward? 

Is there anything that might indicate a pattern of thought you are having when you experience this phenomenon?

Describe some of the differences you feel between different instances of this phenomenon occurring.

These questions would have been a good place to start.

To start on what? 

I often have a visceral (“gut”) feeling of well-being. 

It is sometimes—perhaps even frequently—but not invariably followed by a bowel movement. 

It is almost never triggered by any specific thought of my good fortune in life; it just comes on.  I’m just suddenly aware that I’m feeling it.

In other words, fewer outside stimuli than you have, since you described yours.  Sometimes, none at all!  (By your standards, anyway.) 

It occurs primarily in my gut, but I suppose my brain is involved too—given that every sensation we have is experienced in the brain.

I have heard other people say that they have a feeling of well-being too, but I haven’t asked any of them if it’s related to a full bowel or contemplation of their happy lives.

I don’t have any experience with psychedelics, and I no longer drink alcohol, but I think I can safely say that I didn’t have the feeling when drunk or hung over.  I don’t remember if it occurred more or less frequently after drinking moderately.

I don’t remember when I first had it, but I do recall having had it around other people.

I’ve had it inside more often than outside, probably because I spend more time inside. 

I may have had it driving a car, but am fairly sure never while walking.

I think it occurs more often in the morning.  This may be connected to the bowel thing.  But remember that it’s not necessarily related to a bowel movement.  (Note how scientifically responsible I’m being in answering your questions, however embarrassing.)

Is this an example of something intervening?  Were you enlightened by my answers to your thoughtful, pertinent and thoroughly “scientific” questions?  Is this worthy of scientific investigation? 

There are no outside stimuli, after all!!!  There have been no studies!!! 

(At least, I haven’t reviewed the literature to see if there have been—any more than you have wrt to yours.)

I’m glad I didn’t give up on you after all.  This is fun.

[ Edited: 08 November 2008 05:15 PM by M is for Malapert]
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Posted: 08 November 2008 06:41 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 56 ]  
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Immediate Suppression - 08 November 2008 05:11 PM

Here are some questions you could have asked, had you taken a responsible scientific approach:

Have you been feeling this phenomenon your whole life?

When was the first time you experienced it?

Do you experience it when you are outside, inside, or both?

Have you ever felt it while driving a car, or while walking?

Do you experience it when other people are around?

Have you ever had any experiences with psychedelics?

If the answer is yes, Do you notice this has happenned more frequently since your use of psychedelics?

Have you ever experienced it while on psychedelics, alcohol, or any other substance?

How does it leave you feeling afterward? 

Is there anything that might indicate a pattern of thought you are having when you experience this phenomenon?

Describe some of the differences you feel between different instances of this phenomenon occurring.

These questions would have been a good place to start.

Actually, except for Dr. Frist’s prognosis of Terri Schiavo, most people don’t feel comfortable making a diagnosis on internet or by videotape.  And, since I haved a degree in English and a degree in law, I am doubly uncomfortable diagnosing you.  Let me repeat my advice: see a neurologist if you are experiencing unusual tingling sensations.

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Posted: 08 November 2008 09:26 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 57 ]  
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Immediate Suppression - 08 November 2008 05:58 AM

Evolution has been blind traditionally, but you are simply being close-minded to the power and potential of the human mind.  What we think about and focus upon and how intently we do it determines what we do and how well we do it.  That right there shows the power of the human mind. 

There is the potential to advance the possibility of the human mind/body to be able to have senses beyond the one’s we currently have, but it will not happen unless we start working on it.  Call it what you want, but it is scientific progress at its essence, and those who reject it outright are anti-science, anti-progress, anti-human, and pro-religious in nature.

Mmmkay.  He’s in What the Bleep territory now.  No point trying to reason with him any more.

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Posted: 10 November 2008 11:56 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 58 ]  
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The funding request for this study has been rejected without review. There is no objective data. The anecdotal summary position of an individual requires no further consideration. We apologize for offering a common explanation for why many people feel a chill running up their spine after an emotional stimulus. This board feels no inclination to ask further questions concerning a nonscientific, undefined question without verifiable data and a properly defined and stated hypothesis. Thank you for your inquiry.

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Posted: 10 November 2008 12:20 PM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 59 ]  
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Beam_Me_Up - 10 November 2008 04:56 PM

The funding request for this study has been rejected without review. There is no objective data. The anecdotal summary position of an individual requires no further consideration. We apologize for offering a common explanation for why many people feel a chill running up their spine after an emotional stimulus. This board feels no inclination to ask further questions concerning a nonscientific, undefined question without verifiable data and a properly defined and stated hypothesis. Thank you for your inquiry.

IOW, give it up, Twinkletoes. Spend a little less effort whining that the dog ate your homework, and a little more effort actually doing your homework.

[ Edited: 10 November 2008 12:23 PM by Traces Elk]
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Posted: 11 November 2008 01:06 AM   [ Ignore ]   [ # 60 ]  
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Oh… something’s intervening alright, and it’s gonna be me.
Dear twilnkletoes, aka ‘call me Immediate,’ aka the first person to call the election: the Beamer provided you, more than once, a solid, scientific erector pili conducing and elaborate explanation for the cause of your spinal chills yet you completely ignored them or didn’t comprehend them. Opting instead for your own subjective “open-minded” and hopefully paranormal explanation for your physiological phenomena: a chill running up your spine after experiencing a positive creative or intellectual epiphany.
The Beam explained this subjective experience in physiological terms, but you ignored his explanation, making much ado about his using the word, “likely.” You are looking for a reason to disregard the physiological facts ImmediateS. This is not being open minded, this is an example of being close-minded to the facts in favor of your own pet interpretation of your own wishful delusion that “something is intervening” in your life and mind.

Unbeliever also pointed out the futileness of using sweeping generalizations of terms such as ‘something,’ ‘nothing,’ ‘everything,’ and ‘anything.’ And yet you totally ignored this, under your subjective notion that your idea about ‘something intervening’ is somehow rational and ‘everyone’ else is just close-minded; as if you are the king or queen of open-mindedness because you refuse to accept facts.

This thread has gone from drinking yeast piss (BMU) to graphic interpretations of the sensations of bowel movements (MifM) and you ImmediateS still think that your spinal-based chills are evidence of ‘‘something intervening.” You pose questions that you think would be scientific, but answering questions would determine zero scientifically.

IF you really want to find out what’s going on when you experience those special little chills, you would have to place yourself into one of those body scanners (sorry folks, can’t recall the “official” name of these devices) and have them scan your entire body until you experience one of those chills to actually “see” what’s going on when you experience one of them.

Then, and only then, would you have something to scientifically analyze. If some sort of chemical/electrical activity in the spine and the brain can be discerned while you claim you are experiencing “the chill”  then your paranormal explanation would fly out the mystical window. If not, then you MIGHT have some evidence for your notion that “something is intervening.” Until then, quit thinking you’re so special… we all get chills now and then… and as the Beam already informed you, it’s vestigial and you can’t see the little hairs on your back perk up, you can only feel them and the stimulation can come from internal emotion-based reactions/stimuli or external stimuli. 

Perfectly natural ImmediateS., not paranormal nor extrasensory.

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